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Thread: load work up methods for the heavy 45-70 boolits

  1. #21
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    The Paper Patched Bullet Way

    imho - while there is a little bit of an initial learning curve, bore rider PPBs will have a much easier black powder cartridge build process, with no concern over the cartridge OAL (because there is none). i've totally abandoned greasers in favor of going the "PPB Way", as Brent has so aptly labeled it. most greaser barrel chambers will work fine for ppb's, and it will come down to the bullet diameter, and the wrapping paper thickness. while grooved bullets will surely work well, a slick bullet will work best for long distance accuracy. randy wright's PPB booklet is the best out there. it dwells mostly on using grease cookies (which are probably best for hunting), but he does talk about going straight to a single wad. using a single wad will turn a .45-70 into a virtual .45-90 because the ppb is seated in about .100" to .180" - yep, that shallow - and with a single wad yer looking at drop tubing over 80 grains of yer favorite 1-1/2f. for short distance shooting (200yds or less), i use a series of dry wads to take up powder space, and a good 20 grains less powder charge. do consider at least trying out the PPB Way.

  2. #22
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    Thanks for the detailed info. I must admit I have done some research on PP'ing and I am most intrigued (as is any striving precision handloader) upon the potential accuracy gains, but as I am totally new i'm trying very hard to get up to speed without making a lot of mistakes. For now I'm just going to work greasers, but once i'm promoted to "amateur BPCR handloader" status PP methods will be a "will try" !


    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    The Paper Patched Bullet Way

    imho - while there is a little bit of an initial learning curve, bore rider PPBs will have a much easier black powder cartridge build process, with no concern over the cartridge OAL (because there is none). i've totally abandoned greasers in favor of going the "PPB Way", as Brent has so aptly labeled it. most greaser barrel chambers will work fine for ppb's, and it will come down to the bullet diameter, and the wrapping paper thickness. while grooved bullets will surely work well, a slick bullet will work best for long distance accuracy. randy wright's PPB booklet is the best out there. it dwells mostly on using grease cookies (which are probably best for hunting), but he does talk about going straight to a single wad. using a single wad will turn a .45-70 into a virtual .45-90 because the ppb is seated in about .100" to .180" - yep, that shallow - and with a single wad yer looking at drop tubing over 80 grains of yer favorite 1-1/2f. for short distance shooting (200yds or less), i use a series of dry wads to take up powder space, and a good 20 grains less powder charge. do consider at least trying out the PPB Way.

  3. #23
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    Starting with grease groove boolits is prudent practice. Paper patching is only “easier” if you don’t already have a lubrisizer with the proper dies, but do have the proper diameter boolit, the appropriate thickness paper, and a means for cutting to size and patching. And have an MBA in black powder “fowling” management, in all weathers. You can luck out and get a proper load combination and management routine right away, or you can spend long years in the wilderness sorting out all the paper patch variables, even after reading all the literature on the subject. (It is instructive to note that all authors of “how-to” books on paper patching only guarantee hunting level accuracy if you follow their directions.) The loading and shooting of match-grade cartridges using grease groove boolits is at least down to a science, and the point you said you wanted to pursue at your stage of the game is to learn the nuances of precision BPCR loading and shooting. You can dabble in the Dark Arts later.

    The first boolit that gave me success was the Ideal 457125 round nose, about 525 grains. As a first-tier “go-to” boolit, it’s reliable out to 600 yards, until the wind picks up. There are better designs, but this one is never a bad choice for the beginner, as the moulds and handles are inexpensive, and inexpensive practice is needed more than anything else at this stage.

    The Ideal Postell design, 457132, also seems to work well. The mould I have is slightly misaligned, and I have no idea how that skinny nose goes straight down the barrel, but it shot very well at 600 yards, off the bench in practice. Never tried it in an actual shoot, though.

    But the Paul Jones 450001 or 45-70 540 gr Creedmoor design is the one I shoot now when I shoot grease groove boolits. That design is a marvel; wind resistant and idiot-proof. (Don’t ask how I know this. ). Jones is retired, but Buffalo Arms and Steve Brooks make copies of this design. The moulds and handles are expensive, but so is everything any more. Be glad you’re not into Skeet shooting or own a boat.

    I tried one of the Money boolits off the bench at 600 yards and it didn’t shoot as well as the Postell did. I suspect that my alloy was too soft and the nose was slumping. But here we get into designs that offer advantages in specialty applications only after all the parameters are tuned in. Probably not for the beginner, although the long range experts love this design.

    But Chill is right. Cast your own, if you plan on getting into this on any regular level. They’ll eventually be cheaper than those from the XYZ Bullet Co and the QC will be better as well.

  4. #24
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    I have a Redding measure. I started with the minimum load to fill the case to the bullet's base. That was #50 on the micrometer setting. Load 1 case, then I turned the setting, from 50 to 51, loaded another case, 51 to 52, load 1 case, 52 to 53, load 1 case. I did this for 17 loads. My charges were from 56.7 to 72.7 gr. The powder measure setting is not the grains, its just a control for you to load 20 cases with the same increment of powder between each load. You have to throw 2 or 3 charges to settle the powder after you make each change, but that takes no time at all. So now you have twenty rounds of ammo, each with a slightly different charge. Make a list of the increment setting and corresponding charge weight.

    We go to the range with 2 targets. One at 100 yds. (that's what is available to me) and 1 target on the bench with your equipment. You have a few extra rounds to get you on paper and now the fun begins. Once your on the paper, NO SIGHT ADJUSTMENTS. You fire a round, mark where is hits on the target on your bench with the load number, i.e., #1. Fire the second and mark it on the paper, #2. Fire them in order. Mark each on the target with its load #. After the 17 rounds, you will see some shots spread out and a cluster of others. Take the middle load for the cluster and that is your basic load-and you can fool around a little from there.

    My load worked out to be 61.3 grains, but it is number 55 on the powder meter.
    Don't confuse the meter setting with the powder weight.
    Rich or poor, it's good to have money.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiram View Post
    I have a Redding measure. I started with the minimum load to fill the case to the bullet's base. That was #50 on the micrometer setting. Load 1 case, then I turned the setting, from 50 to 51, loaded another case, 51 to 52, load 1 case, 52 to 53, load 1 case. I did this for 17 loads. My charges were from 56.7 to 72.7 gr. The powder measure setting is not the grains, its just a control for you to load 20 cases with the same increment of powder between each load. You have to throw 2 or 3 charges to settle the powder after you make each change, but that takes no time at all. So now you have twenty rounds of ammo, each with a slightly different charge. Make a list of the increment setting and corresponding charge weight.

    We go to the range with 2 targets. One at 100 yds. (that's what is available to me) and 1 target on the bench with your equipment. You have a few extra rounds to get you on paper and now the fun begins. Once your on the paper, NO SIGHT ADJUSTMENTS. You fire a round, mark where is hits on the target on your bench with the load number, i.e., #1. Fire the second and mark it on the paper, #2. Fire them in order. Mark each on the target with its load #. After the 17 rounds, you will see some shots spread out and a cluster of others. Take the middle load for the cluster and that is your basic load-and you can fool around a little from there.

    My load worked out to be 61.3 grains, but it is number 55 on the powder meter.
    Don't confuse the meter setting with the powder weight.
    OCW testing, i've done this with smokeless bottleneck. Very good info thanks !

  6. #26
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    I slugged my bore last night and i'm getting .457 groove OD . So sounds like the concesus is to go with a .458 bullet ? I also ordered the Randy Wright PPB book. More and more research I do seems PP'ing is the path to real accuracy especially given the fact my plan is to shoot 600 yds.

  7. #27
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    Randolph S Wrights book is very good and gives a lot of good information on loading sighting bench or sticks technique and other aspects of outing these rifles thru their paces. PP bullets are accurate as are GG. A lot depends on how you want to shoot. Youll want to know the bore dia of your barrel also. This will allow you to figure the bullet dia so when wrapped its bore dia or just under. Another good idea is a chamber cast to see what the chamber is as to neck dia, throat dia, throat length and leade. My c sharps, cpa and BRC have no throat leade is right off the case mouth. ( about half or a little more of the front driving band shows when touching the rifling). My Brooks adjustable PP mould is a cup base money style. It cast in 20-1 at .442-.443 is very round and true when measured. When wrapped with 2 wraps of Seth Cole paper its .449-.450 and slightly snug in the bore. When loaded I have .180 in the case and the rest is in the bore. Very close to breech seated bullets in use. You may need a bushing die for these as the bullets smaller dia may not give the neck tension with standard dies.

  8. #28
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    A PP bullet is very capable of great accuracy. Yes it takes a little longer to cut the patches and wrap the bullet but when you get started patching you will learn how to do it efficiently. Cutting patches can be time consuming but I can cut over 400 in less then a hour the way I do it and patch the bullets sitting watching the news or a TV show.
    The important thing with a good PP bullet is to get a proper mould that will cast a quality bullet at the proper diameter to match your supply of paper you have. Sizing a GG bullet that is cast at groove or larger diameter just is not a good thing to do by sizing it down 8 or 9 thousands like I read some doing are just chasing their tail like a dog wanting to get the flee that is driving him nuts. It makes no difference if that bullet is patched to groove or bore diameter.
    Yesterday I took a rifle to the range that I have been working on the barrel and I put the scope on it to get on the paper at 200 yards to see if I have improved the accuracy and I took some loads I use for the other .44-100 Rem Straight that are two years old loaded with 93 grains of 2F OE powder and a bullet from a KAL PP elliptical mould at 507 grains and I had three rounds of 90 grains of 1.5 swiss in the box. The 4 shots at 4 O-Clock were shot at 200 yards using the 2F OE and a sight change at 12 O-Clock are the three rounds of 1.5 swiss. Both loads shoot well enough for a match but the 4 at 4 O-Clock are an exception that I very seldom see that good at 200 but have in the past. I just cant do it at will all the time. that 4 shot group is 3/4 vertical 9/16 horizontal shot at very good conditions.
    The point is, a PP will shoot very well I think better then a GG my self.
    Attachment 208529

  9. #29
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    You guys are the devil... I just bought Randy W's book. Stupid me I thought after I bought the 1874 Sharps my spending would be done.... Yeah sure....lol

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    NO_NO it's just starting

  11. #31
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    oh man, RC - yer gonna be SO hooked!

    everyone's different, for sure, and i wish i had started with PPBs and not greasers.

  12. #32
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    Road Clam,
    good shooting for open sights, especially with challenging eyesight.
    Unless you are using the rifle for hunting, I suggest that you change out that Blade for a
    Hooded front aperture sight such as the Distant Thunder with level.
    Along with a good Tang sight.
    beltfed/arnie

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltfed View Post
    Road Clam,
    good shooting for open sights, especially with challenging eyesight.
    Unless you are using the rifle for hunting, I suggest that you change out that Blade for a
    Hooded front aperture sight such as the Distant Thunder with level.
    Along with a good Tang sight.
    beltfed/arnie
    In about 4 weeks and $660 later, i'll be sporting the MVA 5x optic with the #2 turret. Like i've commented this rifle is specifically for reaching out to 600 yards and i'm only capable with irons out to about 2-300 yds with my horrible vision. The rear leaf on my 1874 is pretty cheesball.

  14. #34
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    I have 3 of the 6x MVA scopes. One 28" and 2 34" These all have the long range rear mount and are mounted on 17" ring spacing. They are very good scopes. These scopes are dependent on the ring spacing for the adjustments to be correct. I use the MVA long range soule rear sight with a Hadley eye cup. One nice thing with the MVA mounts is you can switch with just another set of blocks for the new rifle. Once zeroed on a rifle setting the vernieer to the right setting gets you very close.
    One thing I would recommend for a rifle with these scopes is a Plano Air glide case. It holds the rifle up right and no pressures or force on the scope and or mounts. Its similar to the old buggy boxes used years ago. A secure case for a rifle set up like this. A good line note book will help you a lot as time goes on with refining zeros and other settings. Over time you will have sight settings for a given load and conditions from multiple days allowing the scope to be set to a zero very close.
    Next is a line box for keeping all the little bits and pieces organized and close by. A part of this is a cleaning cradle and cradle for a cleaning rod or 2. There have been some very nice set up shown on the site over the years.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master semtav's Avatar
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    Yea, If you start with PP , you'll save yourself so much money. All those lubes, barrel solvents to get the lead out and different jags, brushes etc to force the lead out wont even be needed, plus you'll spend way less time cleaning the barrel, just a couple patches and you'll be done.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by semtav View Post
    Yea, If you start with PP , you'll save yourself so much money. All those lubes, barrel solvents to get the lead out and different jags, brushes etc to force the lead out wont even be needed, plus you'll spend way less time cleaning the barrel, just a couple patches and you'll be done.
    ... and less press dies (or none at all) and no concern over cartridge OAL.

  17. #37
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check