Is Shell Holder Quality as Important as Die Quality?

[Tom W.]

I have a Redding shell holder that I use for my 30-06 A.I. and some brass will just not fit. However, the shell holder from Hornady for 30-06 will accept them all. I have a habit of buying a shell holder for each set of dies that I buy, even though some use the same one.

[JSnover]

I have one #3 shell holder that is a little snug. Have to wiggle the brass a bit to get it in. But I have two other #3s that work just fine so I tossed it into the 'parts' box. I'd rather have them a little loose so they don't pull the case head off center as the brass enters the die.

[OS OK]

Keeping track of those 'lil buggers' has been my biggest problem...then being able to see those little stamps that identify them...then there's the different numbers the manufacturer puts on them...I had to simplify a 'wee-lill-bit'...

Attachment 208376

Then...after this I discovered that the priming hole in the center is of various sizes too...we just can't win!

[MT Chambers]

Lee is the only one who provides shell holders with dies. In over 40 years of loading I've always had to buy RCBS/Lyman shell holders separately.

Lee figures that if the dies are "off" the shell holder should be too.

[6bg6ga]

Lee figures that if the dies are "off" the shell holder should be too.

That is exactly why Lee uses the same shell holder for the 44Magnum as they do the 45LC. It gives that "Perfect" fit.

[Tom W.]

I keep the shell holder in the respective die box. And an extra one in the priming device, at least for the 9mm.

[6bg6ga]

Keeping track of those 'lil buggers' has been my biggest problem...then being able to see those little stamps that identify them...then there's the different numbers the manufacturer puts on them...I had to simplify a 'wee-lill-bit'...

Attachment 208376

Then...after this I discovered that the priming hole in the center is of various sizes too...we just can't win!

I use magic marker to identify them. Yes, various sizes of the priming hole. Yes, there are variations in the height of the shell holders. Some require them to be machined in order to be able to size the case correctly. Then of course there are the non-fitting, tight fitting, loose fitting shell holders.

[Rick Hodges]

I have Lee, RCBS, and Lyman shell holders and dies. Redding dies and press. I use them interchangeably with no problems. The dies have to be set in the press with which shell holder I am using.

I load for both .44 Mag and 45 Colt with Lee dies and the same shell holder and it has caused exactly zero problems. Perhaps with automated and or progressive set ups there is an issue. I just haven't found one yet.

[jmorris]

Perhaps with automated and or progressive set ups there is an issue.

The issues is that progressives don’t use a single shell holder, rather a plate that holds several cases in place but yeah, if the holder was that important progressives just wouldn’t work.

Can you place a case under the die so it can enter?
Can you pull a case that has been inserted into a die, back out?
Can you place the centerline of the case parallel to ram movement?

That’s all a shell holder/plate has to do.

[6bg6ga]

I have Lee, RCBS, and Lyman shell holders and dies. Redding dies and press. I use them interchangeably with no problems. The dies have to be set in the press with which shell holder I am using.

I load for both .44 Mag and 45 Colt with Lee dies and the same shell holder and it has caused exactly zero problems. Perhaps with automated and or progressive set ups there is an issue. I just haven't found one yet.

I doubt that you will ever see a standard shell holder on a progressive press like a Dillon or Hornady since they all have their proprietary shell holders/disks that you pay dearly for. You must have the only Lee shell holder that works for both the 44 magnum and 45 lC. All I have seen are an it almost works. Poorly designed and thought out on their part. Most people end up purchasing both the 44 mag and the 45LC shell holders because unlike the Lee they actually fit and work.

[Road_Clam]

I like to use fire formed casings on my precision match bolt rifles as my baseline for measuring the shoulder. Years ago I purchased the Larry Willis digital headspace gauge. Very quick and handy tool for monitoring and adjusting shoulder setback. I have found small variances in shoulder bump within varied die and shellplate combos and weather you set your dies for "over cam" or "just touching the die" methods.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

The shellholder needs to have a square deck and enough metal to engage the case rim and remove it from the die without ripping the rim off. Period. Nothing more nothing less. The dies are can be adjusted for the amount of FL sizing (except those few cases where the top of the holder needs to be skimmed OR the bottom of the die needs turned or ground...which is rare). If a case is not a "perfect" fit in the shell holder, the case will float and enter the die just fine (as long as there is a nice radius or chamfer at the die mouth).

Look at the differences in rim thickness and diameter between the 45 colt and 44 mag...and diameter at the base of the case has a relatively small difference too.

[6bg6ga]

The shellholder needs to have a square deck and enough metal to engage the case rim and remove it from the die without ripping the rim off. Period. Nothing more nothing less. The dies are can be adjusted for the amount of FL sizing (except those few cases where the top of the holder needs to be skimmed OR the bottom of the die needs turned or ground...which is rare). If a case is not a "perfect" fit in the shell holder, the case will float and enter the die just fine (as long as there is a nice radius or chamfer at the die mouth).

Look at the differences in rim thickness and diameter between the 45 colt and 44 mag...and diameter at the base of the case has a relatively small difference too.

Every Lee 44/45LC shell holder that I tried had a problem. Maybe your one of those lucky people that managed to get one that works. I can assure you its not the norm.

Seen my share of shell holders that needed machined in order to obtain the correct height. Just too much tolerance between SOME of the dies out there and the shell holders. I actually thought some of you would understand this.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

There is a tolerance in both the dies and the shell holder. If both are at the far opposite ends of the tolerance (or even OUT of tolerance) then they may need to be tweaked. There HAS to be tolerances built in. No one can machine to the thousandth EVERY time. Do YOU understand this???

[6bg6ga]

There is a tolerance in both the dies and the shell holder. If both are at the far opposite ends of the tolerance (or even OUT of tolerance) then they may need to be tweaked. There HAS to be tolerances built in. No one can machine to the thousandth EVERY time. Do YOU understand this???

Actually I do understand this. I was a quality control supervisor and I was a master machinist. So, I think I have a clear understanding but lack the patience to put up with junk. Given the quality of the machines today there is a capability to get the tolerances pretty close so there should be no excuse for present day manufactured dies and shell holders to have problems.

I do blame companies for the lack of quality. Its a shame that a little more setup time or a few less parts an hour would yeald a better made quality part.

[jmorris]

Seen my share of shell holders that needed machined in order to obtain the correct height. Just too much tolerance between SOME of the dies out there and the shell holders. I actually thought some of you would understand this.

I have modified shell holders and dies myself but I have to ask what exactly have you machined to get the correct height on them and how did you determine what “correct” was?

I ask this because if you just needed to lower the die towards the shell holder to get proper head space for a particular rifle, is that the fault of the die, the shell holder or the rifle?

It’s pretty obvious that the distance between the bottom of the shell holder and “deck” is of little importance because we can move the die up and down all we want.

So the only thing that can cause a problem relative to the die, is the distance from the “deck” to the top of the shell holder. I have reduced the thickness of that part to shorten the headspace distance a die can form a case to. I have also torn the top out of a shell holder because that made the extractor portion too thin.

So I have also machine the radius slightly at the mouth of the die so I could move it down further to the “deck” of the shell holder to accomplish the same thing. The tops of the shell holder remain thick enough to not tear out at this point.


I concluded, for me, it’s best to make the die “right” than mess with the shell holder/shell plate.

Given the quality of the machines today there is a capability to get the tolerances pretty close so there should be no excuse for present day manufactured dies and shell holders to have problems.

The problem isn’t tolerances, rather specifications. SAAMI has them for the internal dimensions to form or reform the case but below that point in the die, all bets are off. If it were a lack in different manufacturers to hold critical tolerances, things like not being able to thread into the machine would show up.

You can’t be too far off tolerance or a 7/8-14 “go” thread becomes a “no go”. However, if you don’t specify, it’s luck at that point.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yes making the die right is the best way to go. Decking shell holders only thins the top and it can break when pulling cases from dies. Ask me how I know this...

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Modern machines are excellent. Operator complacency and lack of inspecting parts periodically as they come off the machine is the cause of most out of tolerance parts. Cutting tools degrade and fixtures/setups can move. But you already knew this so this is for all those other people out there.

[6bg6ga]

Modern machines are excellent. Operator complacency and lack of inspecting parts periodically as they come off the machine is the cause of most out of tolerance parts. Cutting tools degrade and fixtures/setups can move. But you already knew this so this is for all those other people out there.

Operator error, companies having set quotas per hour, and inspection cuts help produce bad parts. Years ago operators had pride which contributed to better made parts. Yes, tooling becomes dull and degrades thus the possibility for a shift in tolerance. If the setup was correct in the first place fixtures don't move. It all boils down to how many pieces can be manufactured per hour and are they close enough to use. In my years in the factory I rejected a number of parts because they didn't meet tolerances only to have them be used anyway. So,
inspection means nothing in todays world.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I agree. There are few guys in our shop that still take pride in their work and take the extra time and effort to inspect parts on their own. Sad.