Is Shell Holder Quality as Important as Die Quality?

[6bg6ga]

I got to thinking yesterday when I went thru my reloading dies that I use with my turret press. Do I need to use RCBS shell holders with RCBS dies to optimize results? Can I use say Lyman or Lee and obtain the same results? I started making a list of the needed shell holders and found something somewhat amusing. Lee for example lists their #11 shell holder for the 44 magnum as well as the 45LC. Now, I don't happen to own a #11 Lee shell holder but it has me wondering just how the #11 would work considering the differences in the two cartridges. Sorry Lee, I'll continue to use my #20 RCBS shell holder that actually fits the cartridge than try to use a miss matched shell holder.

Shell holder height... how many have machined the height down a tad in order to properly size a given cartridge?

[Mr_Sheesh]

For full length sizing, you want the die to just touch the shell holder (and a few mils of gap like "a matchbook cover thickness" for carbide size dies so you don't crack them.) So I think of it as matching the shell holder with the dies so you don't change the bullet seating or neck expansion spacing or break a carbide die. I've deburred a couple that had issues but no other changes that I remember.

[15meter]

I've ground down the thickness of a couple of shellholders, I have one on the bench right now that needs it.

The only time I have had to do it was during case conversions. The current problem child is a 350 Rigby Magnum die that I use to convert 375 H&H into the 350. About 30% of the time the shoulder is not set back far enough to close the bolt.

Next batch I may anneal before sizing, softening the neck may let it move easier with less spring back.

[ReloaderFred]

If you measure the various dimensions of several shell holders you're going to find variances, even within the same brand and in the same caliber. They're all "in spec", generally, but there can still be differences. I make it a habit to pair a shell holder with a die set and leave it in the die box with the dies. I also try to have several shell holders for each caliber I load, which is 33 different calibers at the moment. I also label my shell holders so they don't get mixed up.

I've only had to mill off the top of one shell holder, and that was for 357 Sig, since it didn't allow the shoulder to be set back enough to chamber in my various pistols in that caliber. All the literature about the 357 Sig says the case headspaces off the case mouth, but there are actually two datum points with this case, the mouth and the shoulder. If either one is too long, the round can't chamber.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dragon813gt]

I've had no issues using Lee shell holders w/ other brands of dies. They are a more one size fits all approach. But this hasn't caused an issue for me. You can buy Redding Competition shell holder sets for certain cartridges that come in .002" increments to control shoulder bump. So is some cases, no pun intended, the shell holder can be very important.

[country gent]

There are manufacturing tolerences in shell holders same as all things made, this is usually shown on the drawings as mean dimension and +/- it can be off. I'm not so concerned to maker as to squareness and parallel then dimensions. Dimensions being off can be adjusted for with the die setting if on the small side or ground down if on the high side. Out of square or parallel is much harder to fix, and usually requires lightly facing the case area then removing that amount from the top. As these are hardened and it takes a narrow tool to do it its tricky to do. I have 3 sets of lyman shell holders currently one set is +.005 one set is 0 and the last is -.005 this covers a most die tolerences and chambers. I may add 2 more sets in the future at +.010, and -.010 to make it complete.

[mdi]

I would think there are a couple dimensions that are important for shell holders; first the amount of metal the will engage the shell rim when pulling the case back out of a die. Too sloppy and case rims can be "jumped" leaving a case stuck in the die and/or possibly rims torn. The other is the "squareness" of the surface where the case contacts. If tilted/out of square the cartridge may be started into the die crooked, causing distorted cases, crooked bullet seating, etc.

[country gent]

AN out of square shell holder will actually push the case heads out of square when sizing. Causing accuracy problems and chambering problems at times.

[AZ Pete]

They all work pretty well, mix and match. The rare time you may encounter issues is with a minimum spec. chamber. That is when the variation within tolerances is most likely to result in brass that is just not quite sized enough. This is assuming the base and die are within spec. to begin with.


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[Lloyd Smale]

I don't think there a major player in accuracy. Just look at a co axe press. there marketing suggests there better because he die allows a bit of float to "self center" a case. I would think a bit sloppy shell holder would accomplish the same thing.

[jmorris]

No, with some presses you don't even use the shell holder that might come with a die set but you still need dies.

Not to mention if they were really that important every die set would come with a matched shell holder.

[mdi]

Agree with Lloyd. But if the base on which the jaws ride is out of square, the case will be tilted and the "float" won't correct the tilt. The float allows the case to enter the die and self center, but if the base is crooked, the case is off center on a different axis. Personally, I think the Co-Ax shell holder system is near perfect. The Jaw holder is ground flat and the jaws are hardened and ground. I've been using mine for just under a year and have found it so much easier to use than "Universal" shell holders...

[AZ Pete]

Lloyd, my experience has been that the thickness of the top of the shell holder is the one area that can cause under sizing of brass. I have had no issues with loose fit, except when I picked up the wrong shell holder to begin with. Operator error, in that event.


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[georgerkahn]

To the best of my knowledge, ALL shell holders by major manufacturers are made to the same specs, making them very similar. Here, there are variables, as if you factor the model of press with the model and condition of die in it, the condition of the brass not excluding the device it was fired, and chamber of said device to possibly move shoulder; add a few more variables, you end up with a number with quite a few commas between the product! I commend your thinking on this, as the distance the shell holder provides is a variable in the reloading process surely worth being cognizant of!
A product which may illustrate this to you is marketed by Redding, in New York State, and they tout it on their web-site with URL: http://www.redding-reloading.com/onl...ellholder-sets . You can clearly see the wee differences from each 'holder in the set does in fact impart a change. I, personally, have a few 'holders -- a Pacific, a Herters, and an unmarked brand which will make as much marked change as the Redding cited set does -- 'cept the Redding does it with reloaders' intent . I do nt have any Lee brand 'holders, and the Lyman vs. RCBS seem pretty similar, but when I have, I seem to always prefer the RCBS.
BEST! geo

[Lloyd Smale]

yup some brands and even some runs of the same brand have different thickness and you at least have to stroke the press to see if it cams over and also check an empty case to see if it chambers easily into that specific gun before you load a pile. Ive got a 2506 that's a custom gun made on a interarms mauser action. I had about 200 rounds loaded for it out of a load that is its favorite load. My buddy has a savage 2506 (actually his granddaughters gun) and they were going on a youth hunt and as usual he was out of ammo. He asked if I had some and I gave him two boxes and he never tried them in his gun till he got down state and found out they wouldn't even chamber. so in all reality you have to ajust for the gun your using as much or more for thickness of a shell holder.

Lloyd, my experience has been that the thickness of the top of the shell holder is the one area that can cause under sizing of brass. I have had no issues with loose fit, except when I picked up the wrong shell holder to begin with. Operator error, in that event.


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[6bg6ga]

No, with some presses you don't even use the shell holder that might come with a die set but you still need dies.

Not to mention if they were really that important every die set would come with a matched shell holder.

Shell holders used to come with dies. I guess greed has them selling the holders individually.

[Wayne Smith]

Lee is the only one who provides shell holders with dies. In over 40 years of loading I've always had to buy RCBS/Lyman shell holders separately.

[ReloaderFred]

RCBS, Lyman, Redding and Hornady have never sold shell holders with their dies, and neither did Hollywood, Bair, Eagle or any of the others that have fallen by the wayside. Only Lee sells a shell holder with their die, but I normally go further down the alphabet when looking for dies for a new caliber.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[6bg6ga]

Lee is the only one who provides shell holders with dies. In over 40 years of loading I've always had to buy RCBS/Lyman shell holders separately.

Unfortunately the quality just isn't there in the Lee shell holders either.

[David2011]

My .223 cases weren’t setting back quite enough at the shoulder. I had to mill a few thousandths off of the shell holder to get the correct setback. I tried several shell holders before altering one and none gave the correct setback. Clearly the issue is the length of the sizing die but “always alter the least expensive part.”