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Thread: 9mm skidding.....Harder lead?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    9mm skidding.....Harder lead?

    Hi, new here but had a question and in searching for an answer I keep getting a lot of info telling me that bullets lead the barrel because they are either too soft, sized too small or are being pushed too fast.

    Here is my problem. I am new to the 9mm and also new to casting for the 9mm. My 9 is a RP9 with a tight chamber and barrel. The barrel slugs at .355 and my bullets are being sized to .357. .356 sized bullet showed more signs of leading than the .357 and .358 sized bullets seemed to do just fine also however I had to seat them so deep to get them to chamber that I went back to the .357 size. I am using Hitec coating on my bullets. I am using w231 powder and my average velocity is 925 fps. slowing it down much farther and it will not chamber the next round with the stock spring. I have captured quite a few fired bullets to see what was happening and to see if I could find a solution. My lead mixture started off at 50/50 COWW / Pure lead. These bullets tested at a BNH =9 (lots of leading and bullet skidding). I am now using 100% COWW tested at BNH = 18 and am still getting just a little bit of leading.

    The skidding can be seen in the pictures and what is happening is the groove left in the bullet is so wide with the skidding that it leaves a nice gap for the gasses to bypass the bullet and melt the lead. When using only COWW the skidding was almost nonexistent but the bullet was still pressing hard against the rifling on one side and rubbing off the Hitec coating and a little lead was left in the barrel.

    So the question is do I go a little harder on the alloy (maybe BNH =22) to see if it will stop leading altogether or is there something else I might be overlooking. Click image for larger version. 

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    Pease note that the lands and the grooves in this barrel are almost equal in width so the pictures show how much wider the indentation is in the bullet than the land actually is.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_1055.jpg  
    Last edited by flybyjohn; 11-17-2017 at 03:46 PM. Reason: additional information

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Excellent post...welcome aboard. Empiricle evidence, can't beat it huh? Classic definition/example of 'skidding'...

    Wish I could help with the hiteck but have never used it...I PC mine and always shoot around 12 BHN and don't have this problem, mine will get upwards of 1,050 FPS but still no signs of Pb'ing. The .357" sizing oughta be good but still...no experience with the Hiteck.

    flybyjohn...your gonna fit right in here...hope you decide to stay and do more post like this one.

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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I don't think going harder will help much(and I am very fond of hard boolits). Your COWW should be hard enough for your usage.
    You might pull the boolits from a couple of loaded rounds and see if the base of the boolit is getting swaged down in size.
    Also, pushing them a little harder may swell(obdurate) the base of the boolit and help it seal a bit better.
    It appears that the bore of your pistol is a little rough which may be causing some of the scraping. Check your barrel for tool marks and rough spots if you can.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks. the coating on these were my first try and I have learned a bit since then. I think I have a much better applied coating now so I will catch a few more tonight. I also tried to water quench after the last cooking session of the coating. Not sure if the lead is hot enough or not at 400 deg to do any hardening in water but gave it a try. I will post some more pictures after I catch a few tonight and see if I am having the same problems with my latest try at applying Hitec.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    The barrel is pretty shinny and smooth now. I spent quite a bit of time on it with some copper bullets and JB past. It still could use some more but the spots in the pictures where the lands have totally removed the coating is where it skidded to. If you open up the picture of the two photos side by side, the left side has some lines drawn on it. The imprint of the land into the bullet is about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 the width of the land. The coating stayed on where it originally started and then appears the skidding wiped or scraped the coating off at it skidded in the barrel before the bullet picked up enough twist to grab and start rotating.

    I had a problem of the brass swaging down the .358 bullets but it doesn't do it to the .357 bullets.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I wonder if you have a tight spot in the barrel.

    Do you use a Lee factory crimp die?

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    As that coating is being pushed laterally with the Pb...I think it is uncovering uncoated Pb, then the gassing is vaporizing molecules of Pb that gets laid down on the barrel.

    Our PC method of coating I think has some stretching and forgiving aspects to it, whether a PC'd cast will still show this 'skidding' or not is debatable but the gassing doesn't pull the PC off. I've recovered casts that had some splotches of PC missing in random fashion (I over cooked them before I got a reliable oven thermometer) but they still don't Pb the barrel because the thickness of the PC is still there between the cast and the metal of the barrel...sorta like having a jacket of sorts.
    We proove that the PC will stay there by hammering them flat and the just stretch with the cast as it flattens.

    I'm not trying to sell you on PC, just drawing parallels.
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  8. #8
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    Welcome to the forum flybyjohn .

    I've never seen COWW run 18 BHN, (unless you got some zinc in it)

    There are several threads about leading in the 9MM. Type 9MM leading into the Google custom search bar at the top of the forum page
    The 9MM has a tapered case and is frequently over crimped thus swedging down the size of the lead bullet.
    Pull some of you loaded 9MM ammo and see what size the lead bullet is.

    With 9MM I seat and crimp with the same die.
    I crimp only hard enough to keep the bullet from moving in the case when I push the cartridge against my loading bench.
    Then I run it through a Lee FCD only to where the die barely "kisses" the bullet to assure fit in the chamber without downsizing the bullet.

    I run my 9MM around 10bhn with no problems.

    Here is a link to bumpo628's lead alloy calculator
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oy-calculators

    "I had to seat them so deep to get them to chamber"
    not familiar with that particular firearm but your gun may need to be "throated" to allow a better fit.

    Did the Hitek bullets pas the smash and rub tests?
    The coating looks a little rough which could indicate you are swirling them to long.

    there are several threads on Hi-Tek in the Coatings and Alternatives forum

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...o-s-and-don-ts

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Hi-Tek-coating


    If you can't find the answer there feel free to PM me

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Just to clarify, the picture that has the most lead exposed is with BNH 9 lead and the picture that has most of the coating still attached is with the BNH 18 lead. Powder and everything else was held constant. The jump to the harder lead decreased leading 10 fold, I was just wondering if I should go a little harder to see if I can reduce the cutting through the coating all together.

    When I slugged the barrel, the slug seemed to push through with even pressure the whole way down the barrel.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I've never found any COWWs that measured 18 BHN either unless they were WQ'd(?).

    Also can you explain to me what you perceive as "skidding" on either bullet?

    Also, your alloy of straight COWW has little tin if any in it. What you see as "leading" may be antimonal wash. Mixing 2% tin with the COWWs will fix that and give you a better alloy.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  11. #11
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    I may have got a zinc one in there but I thought I got them all out. They fill out the molds good. The ingots have a real good ring to them when they drop on the concrete floor where as the stick on weights and range lead have a solid thud to them.

    I flair just enough to barely get the base of the bullet in and don't get any scraping while seating and then I crimp just enough to get the brass to just make it to the bottom of the chamber. It usually has a friction fit and takes a slight push to get it flush with the top of the barrel and then a little tugging and wiggling to get it back out.

    The coating I am using is the copper stuff and I have tried pouring the bullets out when they are wet and dryer. One time they were still so wet that the coating pooled under the bullets. I think I got it down now though. No matter what stage you poor this copper stuff, they always seem to be a bit rougher than the reds and golds that I have had in the past. Hitec states that the copper has more solids in it and is tougher and builds thickness more than the other coatings. Knowing I was going to be coating 9mm I decided to get the copper.

  12. #12
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    Larry, yes they were water quenched while casting and then again on the last cooking session of the coating. That was from 400 to 410 degrees into ice water. The harder bullets did not skid near as much as the softer lead, if any at all. there is only one picture of the harder bullet and it is the one with most all the coating still on it and it has even land and groove imprints in it. (the first picture)

    If you look really close at the bullet missing the coating, the impression of the land made a full length imprint to the left of the lead patch that is at least half as wide as the lead mark that the land left on the bullet after it stopped skidding in the bullet. To simplify what I am trying to say, the indentation in the bullet is 1 1/2 times the width of the land which leaves a channel for the gasses to pass the bullet.

  13. #13
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    Check out
    Testing hardness with pencils
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-with-pencils

    With HiTek, first coat should be less than 1 mil per pound of bullets
    Coating solution MUST be well mixed IMMEDIATELY before applying to the bullets (it drops out of solution quickly, especially the coatings with metallic particles in them)
    10-15 second swirl is all you need. OK if they are wet when dumped, if the sound changes, you've swirled to long.
    coating needs to be 110% dry before baking ( I use a fan to dry then set them on a spacer on my oven for 10 min to warm and make sure they are dry.




    Double-check oven temp with an oven thermometer set in the middle of the shelf your baking on to confirm temperature is 400°
    Last edited by Grmps; 11-18-2017 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    I use an XDs9, with isocore now. Good capture job. Coating looks a tad thick, center circle in pic is normal, the other circled aren't. IMHO they are too small as the H.T. isn't burnished in the bore part but scraped away in the groove. Normally you get the bore part scuffed back into the groove. I use a different profile nose (RNFP) so plunk test is not a problem.
    Whatever!

  15. #15
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    try a second coat of the Hi-Tek.

  16. #16
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    I'd do a 2nd and/or 3rd coat of Hi-Tek and I would have the barrel throated so I could seat out .358 bullets where I wanted them, not where the throat is currently dictating.
    8500' Wet Mountain Valley, Colorado

  17. #17
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    GRMPS, my first coat is very thin and mixture is measured on a grain scale and acetone is measured with a seringe. 103gr high tech powder with 33 ml acetone. Here is a picture after first coat.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    My oven has been rewired and is controlled by a pid temp control with the thermo couple 1/2"under the center of the bullet tray. The convection fan was wired on another circuit to be on a separate switch so it does not go on and off with the oven pid control.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The liquid coating is mixed in a condiment plastic container with a siringe attached to the top and is sucked out immediately after shaking.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    After coating the bullets are dried on a rack close to the wood stove with the fan blowing warm air over them. Each load is cooked in the convection oven at 410 degrees for 11.5 minutes. 4 coats are put on each bullet using 4 ml of solution to 5.5 lbs of bullets.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ok I am not sure everbody could understand what was happening in those original pictures. Here is another shot of a bullet made out of the softer BHN 8 lead shot at 950 fps out of the 9mm.
    SOFT LEAD BHN 8 sized at .358
    Click image for larger version. 

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    you can see that the indent in the bullet is quite a bit wider than the actual land is and so gasses were running up along side the bullet and melting the lead creating lead in the barrel. I am now using a harder alloy and am getting very little skidding but am still loosing alot of hitec coating from the lands of the barrel.
    HARD LEAD BHN 18 sized .357
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You can see in this latest picture that the skid is just a long narrow triangle shadow along the left side of the streak of lead up near the top. I can live with this because the bullet seems to be sealing all the gasses behind it but now the question is why are the lands shaving off the Hitec coating.
    Here is the same bullet showing the other side, the hitec almost survived on this side of the bullet.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I do agree that the barrel could be throated and maybe my lands taper is to stiff of an angle and needs to be laid back a little.
    Last edited by flybyjohn; 11-17-2017 at 10:19 PM.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    It's obvious that the 9 BH is too soft but with these latest pictures I think you have nailed it thinking too abrupt of an angle on the lands and that throating will solve the problem with this latest blend.
    We have DougGuy, I think is is his handle who recuts the throats and changes the angle on the lands, he has also discovered chambers and barrels that are not parallel and fixes that too, I think...seems that someone just mentioned that problem.
    Everyone who gets their barrel back raves about his work.
    I just had a new barrel put in my 1911 and had the barrel throated, didn't have any leading problems with it but now a RNF profile doesn't want to stop the slide just before going 100% into battery.

    PS...When someone comes to the forum trying to solve a problem you can see there are many here who love solving a good riddle...I hope others here are noticing what a fine job you are doing posting carefully taken pictures and being so detailed in your comments...that really helps and makes for a really good thread.

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  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I think you may have your answer with the idea about the lands being too steep at the chamber. This seems to be a common occurrence in recent pistol manufacturing.
    DougGuy is the one to contact. He fixes this type of thing and I can vouch for his expertise. He did 2 barrels for me and cleaned up my issues with them.

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