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Thread: How fast can I push cast?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    To go fast, paper patched cast bullets have worked in my 308 Win bolt gun. Still shoot cast sized to .309 that are powder coated with a home made gas check loaded with 10 grains of Trail Boss. My 9 year old grand son likes to shoot the 308 Win with the Trail Boss load. He goes thu the ammo at the gun club.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master vzerone's Avatar
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    Yes and in black and white that target shows a hole to the bottom right of the main group which you see isn't there in the color photo. Those smudges on the color photo showed up as a hole in the black and white which I have no explaination. So why post the whole target when the group spoken about is in the bottom left corner. Like I said it has been shot at with something else, but not the 130 grain Lee bullet from the AR 10. You yourself said it wasn't shopped. So tell me what does the full target show that you believe to be so incriminating? Like mentioned the color target shows the group clearly. So there's two other hoels in it, big deal!

    BTW the way that target Larry posted was stolen by one of his friends that use to be on here by entering Joe's Photobucket because Joe didn't have it locked. Admirable friends you have Larry. His name is Sgt Mikey had an chimpanzee pic for an avator.

    I'll tell Joe you think enough of him to keep some of his stuff on your pc.

  3. #23
    Boolit Man brewer12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    brewer12345

    That 11" twist just may give you more of an edge than you think, especially if you're considering a 311299/314299 cast bullet. You should get to 2200 fps with suitable hunting accuracy. Have to see where the remaining velocity hits 1400 - 1500 fps. Knowing the trajectory and having reliable range finders these days then means the trajectory is the real problem as RPRNY suggests.

    The loaded rounds are easily HP'd on tha case trimmer with the Forster 1/8" HP tool. The photo shows a 314299 so HP'd.

    Attachment 207670Attachment 207671
    Thanks, Larry. What alloy would you use with the 311299 pushed fast? Obviously something like Lyman #2 would strike me as good for terminal performance, but would it come apart pushed that fast?

  4. #24
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    OoooPs! . . . "Them other holes was the old man in the lane next to him...cataracts ya know!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  5. #25
    Boolit Master


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    My only experience pushing a hunting boolit that fast involved heat treating as well as a GC and a fairly hard alloy. It was a 35 Whelen and 2for some reason the rifle and the 230 gr boolit would not shoot consistently at a lower velocity. Very few critters here in TX need that much killing but it worked very well on a pretty large hog. It did not exit and I was reluctant to recover the boolit from a big old stinky boar. BAC lube was more than up to the challenge of 2400 fps so it may work for your project as well. I don't know if you're expecting expansion at 200-300 yards but that's something to consider as well.
    Bottom line, I think it can be done but it will take a bit of research and range time.
    Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
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  6. #26
    Boolit Master


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    vzerone

    My last post to on this thread regards your incessant garbage attempting to disprove something with such garbage which you can not prove with facts. Your actions continually ruin many a thread.

    "So tell me what does the full target show that you believe to be so incriminating?"

    Since you asked. Notice the keyholing and lack of tears around all the other bullet holes except the "group". Note the radial tears in the "group". Note the bullet profile of the bottom half+ of the group. That is a key hole. There is not 4 shots in the "group" but one shot and a key hole. I have shot enough printed targets on printer paper to recognize that. The radial tears are from a key holing bullet going through sideways. I know you'll come up with some feeble excuse about the lack of backing causing that but it's just too coincidental that the only unsupported place on that target is where the "group" ended.....yeah right, give us a break.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You're also forgetting I pressure and velocity tested that load also. I could not attain the claimed 3100 fps with a 24" barrel and the pressure level was close to 70,000 psi. I used a very similar bullet and they also demonstrated keyholing and gave almost the exact same size group as on the posted full target.

    You might also be aware of Google Earth and what it shows about your uncle/cousin/whatever's place.

    Finally you have ignored the request to conduct a similar scientific test as I have done and requested and as requested by many others. You and your uncle/cousin/whoever have always ignored every ones request to provide sufficient test data to prove the RPM Threshold is non-existent. The failure to do so speaks volumes...... however it does "credential" your position as a "drive by poster"......I'm still ROTHFLMAO on that one........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
    swheeler's Avatar
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    Larry that looks like a five(5) shot group of about 9 inches high and 5 inches wide? I think you exceeded the RPM threshold by beau coeur GI,
    3000fps only impressive if you can hit what you are aiming atClick image for larger version. 

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ID:	207710 I'll take this at 1100fps less as long as I can do it on demand..02


    cropped? you'll never knowClick image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by swheeler; 11-15-2017 at 10:08 PM.
    Hell, I was there!

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    As always, a single "group" consisting of a relatively few shots on a piece of paper proves absolutely zilch.

    If you wanna be believed, put multiple small groups on the same piece of paper. Or one group with lots of shots comprising the group. Then the disbelief fades away pretty quickly.

    On my other forum, all the "moa" leverguns with exposed hammers are crawling out of the woodwork. When I ask to see multiple groups shot with these super accurate 336s printed on the same piece of paper to show that the shooting is truly representative of what the gun will do for an average to prove its "moa" capabilities, somehow nobody can manage to come up with one.

    Sorta funny given how common it is for someone to claim their gun is a tackdriver, no? If it really will do it for an "average" definitive proof of same should be easy. Just shoot more groups on the same piece of paper. If it will average super accuracy, it will do it for..... well, a statistical average. This always requires more shooting. Not less.

    One group of a few shots raises an eyebrow and prompts me to ask where the other groups are.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Agreed ^^^^^
    I tend to put in any post I do that has a single group on a piece of paper:
    "Not hand picked/cherry picked by any means, the target is nothing more then the test target used to test that load"

    As far as the rpm/alloy/can/can't things that's been going on for too long. Everyone need to test for themselves. I know I've been slowly testing/studying for a couple years now. I'm sure there's better cartridges to test with, but I've gone with the 308w. I've tested with 3 different bbl's so far.
    1 in 10 twist 24" 6-groove match chamber varmint contour
    1 in 10 twist 20" 4-groove standard chamber varmint countour
    1 in 11 twist 25" 4-groove (shallow groove, 308/301) custom chamber (cut for 175gr match bullets) varmint contour

    I just got around to installing a 30" bbl/1 in 14 twist with 6-grooves and a match (340") chamber with a varmint contour on the rifle. Got everything bedded and plan on testing the same alloys/bullets/loads that were used in the other 3 bbl's.

    Same rifle (old puma rifle), 4 different bbl's (all new). Some might say the 1 in 10's are best, other's the longer slower twists. Myself I plan on letting the bbl's speak for them selves. I will say that the 1 in 10 match bbl was pretty even with the 1 in 11 match bbl. The 1 in 10 has 6-grooves (308/300) and a match chamber cut for 168gr bullets. The 1 in 11 has 4 shallow grooves (308/301) and a longer leade angle in it's match chamber (cut for the 175's). While the longer leade angle on the 1 in 11 twist was better for the cast/lead bullets the shallow groove depth/less grooves couldn't hold the cast bullets like the deeper grooved 1 in 10 twist with the deep 6-grooves.

    The end result was both bbl's were equal. Granted I only tested 6 different cast bullets from either cramer or egan molds. Along with 2 different styles of gas checks/2 different gc materials. 3 different alloys, water dropped, air cooled, 2 different lubes, pc'ing the bullets and testing plain cast vs bump dies of the same bullet. Really didn't do a lot of testing/shooting, around 5,000 +/- rounds in each bbl in conditions anywhere from sunny to rain. 20* to 95* and wind from every direction. All the testing was done @ 100yds.

    Will that 30" 1 in 14 twist bbl run circles around the other 3 bbl's when it comes to velocity with lead bullets??? Absolutely!!! That 1 in 10 match bbl was an excellent bbl. Had a .332 chamber, got tired of neck turning the cases. Sold it and bought the 1 in 11 twist match bbl with the $$$. I'm going to put that bbl on a another 308 I have laying around for a jacketed only rifle/175gr jacketed bullets that I swage. The 1 in 11 had a custom chamber that had a long leade in the chamber. Couple that with the shallow 4-grooves (308/301), the cast bullets fit extremely well in the chambers. I like to plink with the lee 312-160gr tl bullet. This is a picture of the dummy round I made for the 1 in 11 twist bbl with the custom chamber. I put that same dummy round in the new 1 in 14 twist bbl with the 6-groove 308/300 bbl. Had to take a cleaning rod to get it out of the bbl/chamber. As you can see the lands bit into the bullet pretty good.
    [IMG]/[/IMG]

    Why all the junk typed above? Because I believe there's a lot more to driving cast bullets fast than something a simple as an alloy or a bbl twist. While both are huge parts of the quest for speed, they are both only parts of the puzzle.

    A good bbl is 1st. Chamber of that bbl 2nd (the 1 in 14 has a .340 neck/excellent for nato brass & 311 bullets). # of grooves/depth of grooves 3rd. rate of twist 4th & alloy 5th

    The only reason I put the rate of twist before alloy is that 1 in 11 twist that was slicked down/shallow grooved for jacketed bullets held it's own against a full blown match chambered 6-groove bbl. The 1 in 10 match bbl was better than the 1 in 11 bbl in every way, the only difference was the rate of twist.
    1 in 10 vs 1 in 11
    full blown match chamber vs standard chamber with a custom leade cut in it
    308/300 vs 308/301
    6-groove vs 4-groove

    Anyway, a lot goes into cast bullets in rifles. The alloy vs twist debate doesn't surprise me and will continue to go on and on. What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???

  10. #30
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???

    Pretty good post...enjoyed the read...

    BUT..as to the answer to your question..."Some of us have to dance with the girl we brought to the party."
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  11. #31
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???

    Pretty good post...enjoyed the read...

    BUT..as to the answer to your question..."Some of us have to dance with the girl we brought to the party."
    I certainly agree with that and "dance" with many just as they came to the party.

    What I also don't understand and also find interesting agreeing with forrest r's last question ("What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???") is those who ask about buying a rifle for cast bullet shooting or are rebarreling a rifle they already have for cast bullet shooting almost always go with what they're told "works best for jacketed bullets"........

    If they want to dance fast with cast bullets then they should consider bringing a girl who can dance fast. BTW Forrest r's 30" barreled .308W with a 14" twist will shoot very well with many jacketed bullets including Sierra's 175 MKs. Too many believe the RPM Threshold Naysayers who say 13 and 14" twist .30 caliber barrels are no good and won't stabilize jacketed bullets........or even heavier cast bullets like the 311299. That just shows their lack of knowledge.

    So my advise is; if you want to dance with .30 caliber cast bullets slow or fast then get a girl with a minimal 12" twist or preferably a 14" twist. A 13" twist (common .308W Palma twist these days) is a very good compromise. Otherwise, if you want to dance fast and get a 10" twist then be prepared to have your toes stepped on.........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    I know that in my misspent youth I tried loading the bullets that I cast for my .30/30 into my .308 with regular jacketed powder charges and got patterns rather than groups. I can shoot the same bullets with light loads and get good results in my 30-06, but I use them for plinking or fire forming loads. The bullets are a 160 gr rn from Lee and a 168 gr. ( I think) fn I bought that Ranch Dog was selling here. The RD bullet is the better shooter in my '06, both do excellent in my 30/30. I have to go get my rifle from my son's house and either borrow his dies or get my own set. It's an old NEF that has the wrong base for the scope on it, but shoots great. I loaded up a bunch of light loads for my late wife to shoot. I'm blabbering now. Just started to say that I couldn't get anything that resembled a group with extremely fast cast loads.
    Tom
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Good humorous explanation Gibson...it's nice to read your work when your 'anti-fan club' ain't around mucking things up!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #34
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Good humorous explanation Gibson...it's nice to read your work when your 'anti-fan club' ain't around mucking things up!
    Yes, with all the "muck" sometimes I do have to put my chest waders on instead of my dancing boots.......


    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    ditto.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

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