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Thread: Paper 101

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgeredd View Post
    Just one more thing (maybe), would air cooled ww be an acceptable alloy?
    The most recent advice you have received on bullet diameter would have you operating at (or slightly under) bore diameter...after patching. In order for a bullet of that size to bump up enough to seal the bore, it will probably need to be somewhat 'soft'. Wheelweights may not give you what you need.

    On the other hand, a 'fatter' bullet patched to groove diameter will require less bump. So, it's something to consider...
    CM
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  2. #82
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    MC,

    Thanks for the answer. I imagine I could use a 50/50 pure lead/ww mix too. I think I'll go with a slightly larger diameter boolit anyway. It seems that way no matter what (within reason) I should be on the right track.

    Guess I'd better get at making a mold to see if I am truly capable. Let the game begin!!!!!!

    Edd
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  3. #83
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    home in oz's Avatar
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    Well thought out article, thanks!

  4. #84
    Boolit Bub
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    This is a worthy step toward engineering the PP bullet.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    I received some bullets cast by a guy who bought a case stretcher from us. They are exactly like what I think I want to use, and their diameter is .450". That is the diameter I would prefer...if I can find a paper that gives me the .460" patched-to diameter I want to try.

    I tried my 'onion skin' and only got an increase of 6 or 7 thousandths with two wraps.
    I tried the Ross lens paper and only got ~ 5 thousandths. . . .
    CM
    This may prove helpful.
    First, two wraps (what I call a "2X patch") will give you the following diameter increase for the listed hard-surfaced paper (this varies by make, but is a good rule of thumb):
    16# paper gives 0.010" (or 0.005"/turn):
    20# paper gives 0.012" (or 0.006"/turn):
    24# paper gives 0.014" (or 0.007"/turn); and
    28# paper gives 0.016" (or 0.008"/thrn).
    Use paper that THICK?!!! Now you KNOW I'm crazy. However, listen a bit further and you'll join me in that affliction.

    Second, If a 2X patch is not enough, then try at 3X.

    With those two pieces of information, you can achieve just about any final-dried-patch-diameter you want from any reasonable boolit core diameter.

    Third, a tight as-wrapped-&-dried paper patch is very weak! It will not start to really function (as a "grab point" for the rifling to torque-up the bullet to its muzzle-exit rpm) until all of the "air" has been crushed out of it so that it is a hard shell. You can "get there from here" ahead of time if you size down around half of the patche's added diameter, for THAT is the amount of crush at which most papers become "harder than lead alloy" (i.e., the paper fibers are fully mobilized against one another, with no air cushion left).
    Example: If you have a 0.450" boolit core and want a crushed-to-hardness patch diameter of 0.458", you'll need to add 0.016" (dried-over-the-patch diameter of 0.466") = a 2X patch using 28# paper. You then size to 0.458" and end up with a very hard jacket ready to do its work. Sizing down any further than that will cause the boolit core to size down (because the patch is then too hard to give at sizing-induced pressures).

    Forth, both wheelweight alloy and the sized-to-hardness patch will give you some springback, so you can expect the patch described above to come out at ~0.459" or even a 0.460". However, when shot, the instant it enters the full-rifling-depth (just ahead of the throating), it will be sized down again to 0.458" in the grooves and further compressed by the lands, so will be able to start doing its torque-up work IMMEDIATELY ~~~> no loosey-goosey slouch-along until the charge FINALLY reaches full pressure (usually 1.2" to 3" forward of the casemouth, in most modern rifle chamberings using rifle-type powders and charges).
    Regards, Zeek

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy jbunny's Avatar
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    so much to learn in so little time. lots of good info guys, and mich apriciated.
    as for type of paper, thinking outside the box, how about meat wraper paper.
    brown paper waxed on one side so u don't have to lube for the final sizeing.
    i got to get a electric coffee cup warmer to roll your boolits on and to warm
    ur boolits prior to wraping. first got to find out what temp the wax melts.
    a brain fart??????
    jb

  7. #87
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    I think I have found some good paper to test out. We use it at work. They are called Kimwipes made by Kimtech. They are a long strand tissue paper like but lint free and very very wettable. Kinda stretchy when wet and about 0.003" thick. The ones we have are about 16" squares. Lots of patches per sheet. Not sure how much they are to buy outright but a couple of sheets will last me a while.

    Matt

  8. #88
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range onesonek's Avatar
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    One thing I learned while researching paper, is that lense tissue may be not the best. I didn't find alot on how it was made, but came across one brand that was 70% rayon 30% cellulose. If they all have synthetic fibers in them I do not know. I do know that rayon don't stand a lot of heat, and suspect it would melt at the base. I also wonder what the friction heat will do to it on it's way down the bore. I can envision the possibility of a sticky mess. May not be so, but I have to wonder.
    Dave

  9. #89
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    That would explain a lot about their characteristics (stretchiness, etc). I never did anything with the wipes so I can't elaborate on their use.

    Matt

  10. #90
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range onesonek's Avatar
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    "With this knowledge, you can now wrap your bullets with a paper paper so that you get maximum strength in the wrapping direction (which is the machine direction, or the direction with the aligned fibers due to the DRAG). So, any sheet of paper you have, you can give a little tear, then turn 90 degrees, and measure the tear again to see which one is stronger/weaker. The WEAKER tear is the STRONGER tensile (or PULLING) force, which is the machine direction, which is the axis you want to wrap AROUND the bullet, or PERPENDICULAR to the bullets major axis. Get that? Read it again until you have it down."

    Not nitpikin or trying to over think this,,,,more or less just thinking out loud here.
    Ideally,,,would you not want to cut your paper CMD on a bias as to match MD to the twist rate catboat? Just looking for your thoughts on it.
    This way the MD max tensile strength is aligned to the lands and grooves, rather than the bore axis. Yeah I know one would have some cutting waste. I'm not sure how much if any difference it would make. It's just one of those thoughts that come from that "perfectionist" character defect (so I'm told by the wife) I inherited from my father,,,lol
    Dave

  11. #91
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    I don't think it makes a HUGE difference, whether you wrap the bullet with the machine direction (md, or "higher percentage of longer fiber in md" ) or cross machine. MOST paper is not totally weak in the cd direction. Some paper is made when cd tensile strength=md tensile strength (called a "square sheet").

    My point about wrapping the bullet with the strong directional of the paper (typically MD) is that you could put a tighter wrap around the bullet-and as the wrap dries, have that md strength to prevent ripping/breaking.

    I don't think it makes any difference what direction the grooves/lands "see" or get. The bullet is being pushed out with compressed gas. The rifling will cut that paper to some degree. The paper jacket often shreads as it exits the muzzle, due to those cuts or "scoring' of the paper jacket, as the jacket hits the resistance of air (now outside the barrel).

    I wouldn't get to worried about the md/cd thing. It works in either direction.

    If you go back to the era of true paper jackets of the 1870's-80, Sharps used paper that was called (I believe)" bank note paper). The paper machines back then were very slow, with not a lot of drag of fibers on the formation of the wet sheet. As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if that paper was had a "square tensile" (md=cd, or close to it). There was also a fair amount of "hand made" or "dipped" paper. This is when a papermaker would make a fiber slurry, and dip a framed piece of screening in the slurry. The water would drain, and the sheet would be transferred (or "couched", pronounced "cooched" as in "cool") to a pressing and drying. These "dipped" papers were definitely had "square" tensile, as there wasn't any drag in formation.

    Once again, if it works for you, then that's what it's all about. I just wanted to give readers some background on what to think about if they were selecting paper.

    For the early poster, tissue paper may or may not be good paper to make a paper jacket. I think true "toilet paper" tissue, wouldn't be so good,as it is designed to lose fiber/fiber strength when it hits water (toilet)-so it won't plug up pipes. Toilet tissue (100% wood fiber) would just fall apart in th paper jacket formation process. You could probably get it to would somehow-but with so many other options, why bother.

    The synthetic blend of tissue paper may be different. It MAY work. Try it. I'd guess that the synthetic blended tissue wouldn't have enough natural fibers to hold the wrap when it dries. Hydrogen bonds develop as the fiber:fiber interfaces get closer together upon drying. This process, H-bonding, yields dry strength. The opposite true. When fibersare wet, they are easier to rip/rear. It explains why freshing cut firewood is easier to split than two year old dried fire wood. I would think that 70% synthetic fiber blend would reduce dry strength bonding from the inner/outer layer of the paper jacket by that amount (70%). Who knows, it may work though. As for melting in the barrel? Try it. maybe pressures/temps are low enough. Shotgun cups are plastic. They don't automatically melt in the barrel (for the most part-though sometimes there is some residual gunk left in the barrel.

    Tissue WRAPPING paper, is an excellent source. Strong. thin. Should be very close to "tracing paper."

    If you don't try you ideas, you'll never know.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by onesonek View Post
    Not nitpikin or trying to over think this,,,,
    You're doing a pretty good job of it...
    CM
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  13. #93
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range onesonek's Avatar
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    Ok,,,it was more a passing thought more than anything. For the most part, I'm more interested in playing with filter paper,,,,, thinking back on what was said about the lack of abrasive sizing additives. Only thing with the cheap coffee filters I had here at hand,,,they were running up to 40% shrink with this particular filter measuring .0025 from the start. Now that may be more to my lack of experience in rolling technique, and I'm over stretching it. Be that as it may, I am looking forward to experimenting with it when my mold gets here,,,,,and the temp. moderates some. It's 12 below right now,,I ain't shooting anything at present.

    I do have a line on filter paper and put a request in for a sample,,,we'll see if they are willing to send me some from a roll. It is the heaviest this particular company makes for coffee/tea paper. It weighs 30 g/m2, and specs show strength to be about 3-1 md/cmd with "high wet strength", just noted,,(fully understanding your earilier comments on the matter). I have no idea what the thickness is, but hope to find out.
    Another company has 45 g/m2, but it only comes in 70mm width unless special order is produced,,,( I read that as very large quanity). That width may be a bit narrow for medium to large bores. The other company's 30 g/m2 runs 70 -145 mm wide rolls. I asked for a 145mm sample, thinking it may take more than 2 wraps.

    From reading here, I know there is a lot out there that works without a lot of fuss,,,,,I just like to experiment, as it just adds another excuse to shoot and to find out "what might be".

    I agree, it certainly can't hurt to try the lense tissue/paper. Rayon fiber is completely different than the mass of plastic shotgun wads however. I just know you get rayon fiber/yarn/thread within a 1/2" of a flame, it shrivels worse than your family heritage on a winter's day. And I suspect most PP loads are running at 2 times or more the pressure. I quess it's the throat and leade area I be most concerned with it fouling.
    I can't say that the wads melt, but they do leave some residue in the bore. I never use to do than more the run an oil mop down my 12 ga.. I got into Trap a few years. After my first 1/2 season of shooting, I was advised to clean it with "Shooters Choice". Should have been sooner. I ran a wet patch down and let it set 10 mins.,,,,,looked like I had gravel in bore from the plastic lifting from what looked like a fairly clean bore,,,outside of a few unburned powder flakes.
    Last edited by onesonek; 01-23-2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: addition
    Dave

  14. #94
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range onesonek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    You're doing a pretty good job of it...
    CM
    Thanks!

    "Not nitpikin or trying to over think this"

    Mis-stated,,should have said,,,what's your thought's of cutting on the bias catboat?

    That work for you better?
    Last edited by onesonek; 01-23-2011 at 04:30 PM.
    Dave

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by onesonek View Post
    One thing I learned while researching paper, is that lense tissue may be not the best. I didn't find alot on how it was made, but came across one brand that was 70% rayon 30% cellulose. If they all have synthetic fibers in them I do not know.


    Rayon is not really synthetic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon

  16. #96
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range onesonek's Avatar
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    True,,,,nor is it entirely natural. I did not know that either however. It still melts at a very low temp, which is my somewhat concerning thoughts. Not that I use it, I generally see Rayon listed along with other synthetics. For the most part I was using the term losely, as if one brand has rayon in the composition, other's may have other similar fibers in it as well whether semi or fully synthetic. Thanks for the headsup on it though Brent
    Dave

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by onesonek View Post
    Mis-stated,,should have said,,,what's your thought's of cutting on the bias catboat?

    That work for you better?
    It all works for me.
    I replied to your post not knowing it was directed to catboat, who had not posted to the thread since September...of 2008.
    I figured a short answer would pique your curiosity, and you would ask me to amplify on why I thought you were over thinking the fiber direction.

    At that point I meant to give you a short rundown on what my own results had been, so you could use that information as part of the answer to your untested musings.

    CM
    Last edited by montana_charlie; 01-23-2011 at 07:32 PM.
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range onesonek's Avatar
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    Oh Ok Charlie,,, Yeah, I understand even with a partial post from Catboat that it wasn't clear I was asking his thoughts. I also know his post was sometime ago as well, but I hadn't been following it until recently. With that, I just think the whole process while nearly impossible to re-invent the wheel, is still in part a process of evolution, where as new products that serve a function not as intended still can be or have the possibility of an asset to our sport. My only point or thought was,,,, I hadn't seen the bias cutting mentioned, where as it would come into play(maybe) from a strength aspect. Thanks!!!
    Dave

  19. #99
    Boolit Mold Westerner's Avatar
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    Back with some questions after many years.
    Tried cast and swaged striaght wall bullets with 100% rag 9# and 30 to 1 lead with double wrap using water/egg white solution for wetting as per Paul Mathews recomendations. I have all his books and consider it the best library for the 45-70. I bought a Pedersolli 1874 "Quigley" model in 45-70 just so I could load BP Patched rouunds only. To date I haven't been able to get a bullet out without leaving a ring of paper on the taper portion of the lands. Has anyone successfully shot this gun with paper patch? Has anyone been able to pollish the face of the land taper portion. I would appreciate any recomendations. Thanks, Larry

  20. #100
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    Larry, there are lots of people that shoot that make/model with PPBs and do well. So, it's not the gun.

    1. Loose the egg white. I love Paul Matthew's stuff, but the whites will just give you problems. Water is enough and even wrapping dry works best for many folks (including myself). But this won't fix the paper ring.

    2. The ring is caused by the bullet swelling up in the chamber as the pressure rises. This pushes paper into the gap between the case and the beginning of the lands, where it is sheared off. There are two solutions

    A. get longer brass. Or lengthen your brass. There is a guy that makes a jig to do the latter. But for sure,your brass is too short for your chamber.

    B. rechamber your gun. This requires exactly the right reamer. It should be doable by a skilled smith w/o setting back the barrel. The right reamer is one that I call the "Orville Chamber". It will do the job, but A is easier and cheaper.

    If you go to the Shiloh rifle forums (http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php), and post a note asking about information for either A or B, you will find the folks that can help.

    Brent

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check