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Thread: Paper 101

  1. #61
    Grouchy Old Curmudgeon

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    Ross calls it .005mm which is 2 thou......ought to work and worth a try.

  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    After reading Molly's post this morning, and CM's post just now, it struck me that I have been thinking that tougher, stretchier, more flexible papers were what I have been thinking I want. I suppose that resistance to cutting when engraving is necessary too, but these papers might do that also. What say yees, what qualities make a primo patching paper?

    CM, If you were to make a few patches with that paper and shoot some boolits with them, please let us know how you like them. I am following this with great interest.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftiye View Post
    CM, If you were to make a few patches with that paper and shoot some boolits with them, please let us know how you like them. I am following this with great interest.
    leftiye, are you willing to follow slowly?
    You see, as stated elsewhere, I don't paper patch.

    I have developed an interest in it, and I am collecting tools and materials...but I don't yet have a mould for a paper patch bullet.
    I am still trying to decide what diameter I want to try first.

    I have some leftovers from an abandoned journey into 'grooveless' bullets that depended on being 'dipped' to carry lube into the bore. They have smooth sides, somewhat similar to a paper patch design.
    So, I have cut a few onionskin patches, and practiced some rolling, just to see what they looked like...and to get an idea of how much the paper increases diameter.
    That information should be helpful in choosing a naked size.

    But, if you want to wait till I shoot one...well...you might still be waiting come next spring.
    CM
    Last edited by montana_charlie; 09-13-2008 at 01:50 PM.
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  4. #64
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    After a couple of false starts, Ross did finally send me a sample of their lens paper.
    As it turns out, it measures .002" when using my dial caliper.
    Comparing it to 9-pound onionskin, they are very similar in thickness.

    The onionskin is 'harder' and 'slicker', while the lens paper has some 'texture' to it and (as expected) a softer 'feel'.
    CM
    '
    Montana Charlie,

    I'm glad you got a sample of your desired paper. You make a very good observation about the onionskin and lens paper about the way they feel (hard, slick, texture).

    Lens paper needs to be soft for the application. It is likely creped (pronounced CRAYpped , with a long "A" as in crayon). You have seen crepe paper for party decorations. Look at it , and it will be folded, or bunched togeter. This is done a a paper machine, mostly for tissue products (toilet tissue, napkins, nose tissues) so they are soft on our tushies and noses.

    The continous sheet of paper is directed to a LARGE heated metal cylinder ("Yankee dryer") in the paper machine ( on tissue machines, not on machines making printing/writing grades). They vary in size, but can be more than 20 feet in diameter. The surface of the roll is continually coated with a cross linked polymer that acts as an adhesive (also called a "release coating"), which temporarily bonds the damp sheet of paper to the creping roll. The paper and creping roll on in contact for more than half of the roll (almost looks like the greek letter "omega".)

    On the "outgoing" side of the creping roll, there is a long blade, the width of the machine. It is essentially a large putty knife. The "putty knife" blade, scrapes off the "stuck" paper from the creping roll. But, in the process, and by control, the paper "rams into the putty knife blade, and bunches up (crepes), THEN is released to enter the drying section of the machine. This creping process, softens the sheet (for our tushies).

    If you take party-favor crepe paper, you can stretch it. This is because you are "debunching" the sheet.

    A paper machine that makes writing paper, does not have a creping roll, so the sheet does not have this physical characteristic of "bunching" or "softening" , as is does not need it (a printer certainly does not want to write/print on creped paper-poor print results will follow). "Onionskin" is also subjected to a size press as one of the last steps in the papermaking process for this grade. A size press is essentially two rolls together (like the fashioned "washer/wringer washing machine" with a continually pumped stream of cooked size press starch ("gooey") and likely some surface sizing agent to assist in printing/ink sharpeness. A size press will made the sheet (at least the surface) feel stiffer, or "harder" as you observed. The added starch (internal and surface), plus the 25% "rag" or linen fibers give the "onionskin" sheet that "rattle" if you hold a single sheet by a corner or end, a shake it a bit. It IS harder than tissue paper. Great observation.

    The creping process also breaks some fiber:fiber bonding, so the dried (final product) creped sheet will be a little weaker than if it were not creped.

    It may be still plenty strong for this application of paper patching. It may also be good for rolling/patching, as you can stretch out the paper a bit in the process for a tight wrap (as the paper "de-crepes" in the paper patching process.).

    If the lens paper doesn't dry tightly wrapped, it may be due to the sheet being creped relatively severly (to make it as soft as possible). Fiber:fiber bonds have been broken to a fairly great extent. One way to counter this would be to add a small amount of wall paper paste to the wetting solution. (or contact an industrial starch supplier, such as Cargill, Hercules/national starch, Carolina starch, Penford Products, Raisio, Western Polymer) ask for a small amount of cationic wet end starch (2-4 oz).

    I have seen some lens paper than seems like it has not been creped-perhaps that should be compared /tested too.

    FYI: "lint free" refers to the paper not having short fibers that can pull off and be left on a lens. This supports the fact that the paper is made from relative long fibers (as previously written about), whether they are soft wood kraft or linen/flax based.

    Sounds like good paper. Please report back how it wraps , and shoots.
    Last edited by catboat; 09-13-2008 at 02:23 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by catboat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    The onionskin is 'harder' and 'slicker', while the lens paper has some 'texture' to it and (as expected) a softer 'feel'.
    CM
    Montana Charlie,

    I'm glad you got a sample of your desired paper. You make a very good observation about the onionskin and lens paper about the way they feel (hard, slick, texture).

    Lens paper needs to be soft for the application. It is likely creped.
    Nope...it doesn't resembel the 'crinkliness' of crepe paper, at all.

    Let me see if I can say it a different way, to give a more accurate understanding of the difference.

    The onionskin is quite slick. But after being slightly dampened and rolled onto a bullet, it does seem to cling to itself a little...and is mildly resistant to unwanted unrolling. After drying, it has taken on a curled 'set' that makes it unwilling to unroll, even though it doesn't appear to be stuck to itself.
    The surface of the two-layer wrap seems almost as hard as the soft lead bullet underneath.

    The lens paper is (perhaps) not quite as stiff as the onionskin, but it is by no means 'limp'. The 'texture' and 'softness' I referred to is a quality of feel...rather than a flexibility of the paper.
    It is somewhat like comparing grain leather to suede. Both can be equally 'stiff', but suede has a surface texture while the grain leather is 'slick'.
    That isn't to say that lens paper is 'fuzzy'...but it has a slight 'velvet-ness' when rubbed.

    And...in appearance, it kind of resembles very thin fiberglass mat because you can see the fibers.

    I haven't tried it on a bullet, but I didn't get the impression (just handling the dry sheet) that it is particularly 'stretchy'...at least no more so than the onionskin (which can be stretched a bit while wet).

    I managed to delete part of the email series I had with Ross Optical, but Divi Mangadu ( divi@rossoptical.com ) is the person who sent me the sample.
    If my descriptions of the qualities of this paper make you (anybody) feel like trying it, I suggest you contact her to explore the question of how to obtain large quantities of it...and in larger sizes. I would like to know, myself.

    The samples I received are little 4 by 6 sheets, which (I suspect) would result in a lot of being wasted when cutting it up for bullet patches. It would be nice to be able to get it in bigger sheets...or some kind of roll.

    CM
    Last edited by montana_charlie; 09-13-2008 at 10:46 PM.
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  6. #66
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Montana Charlie,

    I had to dig up my box of lens paper to investigate. It is called 1 ply extra-low wiper, made by alpenco (product number AL60). 300 sheets/box (5" x 8"). The address on the box is Pendergast Safety Equipment, Philadelphia, PA. It is ~.0021" to ~.0022" thick. Haven't patched with it yet. My best luck has been with some yellow art/tracing paper-but I'm always looking around for "something different." It keeps the neurons firing in the old brain crankcase.

    The example of the party favor crepe paper is the extreme, which definitely shows the "bunched sheet" affect (so a person can visualize it). On tissue, creping is the fiber level, not at the macro "sheet" level (as they say in papermaking, "sheet happens"). Creping is a process to soften the sheet, by breaking bonds. It may or may not stretch at a macro level.

    The onionskin likely holds it shape for a variety of reasons. One is that the surface is treated with surface starch. Upon wetting, wrapping, it comes in contact with the other surface of the paper. It (size presss, or surface starch) acts as a bonding agent to hold the to layers together. That's good.

    The bottom line is that if the paper a person uses performs for them, then all is good. I came across some other paper that looks interesting. My wife received a package (clothes) in the mail the other day. It was wrapped in sheets of flat tissue/wrapping paper. I kept it aside to "play with". It's almost like tracing paper.

    Good luck

  7. #67
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    catbob

    Can't thank you enough for all the info you've provided. I just got home from nightshift and was thinking all night about the abrasivness of different types of paper and who I could contact for info. (Just joined the forum last week) I've got Paul Mathews book 'the paper patch" and read it for the ?th time and still not enough info on paper. You should put all this info into a book, really. (no kidding) You have all the knowhow from a professional view. I have to print all your writings so I can re-read them again. Seriously, any chance you'd consider putting your vast knowledge into print? (Mathews, Venturino,Catbob?)BB

  8. #68
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    cockle finish

    Cut and pasted from another thread on the board. Keeping all the paper making questions together.

    Another good question.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Mr. Catboat (or anyone else who knows)-

    I wonder about the "cockle" finish used on some of the onionskin papers, supposedly to make them easier to erase on. Is this indicative of more abrasives, or is it just a particular texture the paper has? The specific paper I am using is Southworth 9 lb. onionskin, 100% cotton, cockle finish.

    Thanks very much, take care!
    Regan


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    Today, 03:31 PM #2
    catboat
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    Cockle finish is a weird one. Weird in that, to a papermaker, it's an undersirable characteristic of the paper.

    "Cockle" means the sheet has many "puckers" on in. If you look at the sheet's surface from low angle, you will likely see a non-smooth surface. Cockles or puckers vary in size, but they are area of paper about 1/2" to 1" in size. Some pucker up, and some pucker down. It is due to non-uniform water release (drainage) from the paper. Then as the sheet passes continuously through to the dryer section of the papermachine, the areas of the sheet which have released water at different rates has presented a sheet that will dry at various rates. You use low levels of "draw" or paper tension (which allows the sheet to pucker). The dryer sections of paper (can be areas of 1/2" to 2" in size) will dry faster than the wetter sections (same ~ size area). The uneven degree of heat to the sheet causes the fiber bundles (areas of fiber) to shrink at different and non-uniform rates. This results in a "pucker" or "cockle." When you WANT cockles, is if a customer wants a sheet of paper that is to look like a "hand made" sheet of paper (like from 100+ years ago), and then the sheet was air dried (no tension).

    If you want to eliminate cockles or puckering, the papermaker increases the tension of the sheet, at various points along the machine. Today's papermachines make then sheet nice and smooth, almost like ironing it. A smooth sheet is better for printing (better transfer of inks). But, if someone wants a "cockle finish", the papermaker will reduce draw / tension to the sheet, and make the stuff.


    It's sort of like having non-uniform areas of corrugation (corrugation would be more linear lines, where as cockling or puckers are "circular" corrugation. By corrugation, I mean the sheet's high and low area create a space. If you stack a bunch of sheets of paper that has cockled, compared to a stack of sheets that does not have cockles, the cockled stack will be bulkier (due to the high/low voids made from the non-uniform drying).

    I've seen some weird stuff. Many years ago, my sister bought me some writing paper as a gift. She was very "green and environmentally conscious" back then. The paper was "all natural." She was very proud to give it to me. I looked at it, and it was the lowest quality paper I've seen. Instead of having uniform and smooth formation (fiber orientation, non-blochy) it looked liked someone ironed a bunch of cotton balls together. Instead of having nice smooth fiber orientation, it had literal chunks of wood in it (that's what made it "all natural" I guess). The paper maker calls those chunks "shives" (short "I", like "slip"). Those fiber bundles are deliberately put through screens to remove, because a true papermaker would die of embarassment to produce a sheet of paper with that crap in it. Oh well, I guess if there is a market, there is a product for it.

    Someone must like the sound of the work "cockle finish" and wants it. A papermaker I will fill that need, if it means a sale.

    From a paper patching stand point, it shouldn't make any difference, good or bad, for wrapping a bullet. It may make it dry a bit non-uniformly, as that is what caused it in the first place (some wraps may be tighter or looser due to fiber drying characteristics). That's a guess, and it may be miniscule, or non-existant.

    I wouldn't go out to BUY cockle-finished paper, as it is just bond grade paper (good fiber, and good quality), but with that funky non-uniform fiber drying issue. Certainly don't pay any PREMIUM for it. It still has a fair amount of filler to it (probably at least 12-15% inorganic filler (clay or calcium carbonate), and may be as high as 20%+ filler.

    I still like tracing paper or lens paper as a bullet wrap paper. Low ash, strong fiber.

    But, as I always repeat... "if it works for you, then use it."


    It's interesting how marketing comes to play. Something that is a mistake is now sold as "something special" to those who don't know "the rest of the story." . Now you know.

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    Last edited by catboat; Today at 03:44 PM.
    Last edited by catboat; 10-12-2008 at 10:21 PM.

  9. #69
    Boolit Mold
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    Brown Wrapping Paper

    This question is posed for Catboat, Brown Wrapping Paper, as used for covering books, parcels etc. Is available in .002" thickness, how suitable is it for patching? It seems relatively free of sizing and other materials to make it hard and opaque. Two kinds seem to be common, one is dull (both sides) and the other has one or both sides shiny. The dull stuff, looks remarkably like the paper found on antique rounds. Which by the standards of today's paper looks coarse or unfinished.
    Thanks
    David

  10. #70
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Brown paper is brown as it is unbleached. It also probably has a touch of brown or yellow dye added to it to uniform batch to batch sources of fiber. Brown paper typically has a very high percentage of long fiber (softwood kraft), and low levels (usually not added at all) of inorganic filler ("ash"). Brown wrapping paper is designed to resist tear, which is why it uses long fiber (very strong). Most brown wrapping paper will have some sort of water sizing to it (alum-rosin for acid-, or AKD for alkaline/basic- papermachine systems). Use the "lick test" to see how long (in seconds) it takes to wet-out the opposite side of the sheet.

    Think about it, why would you want to wrap something (or even use a paper bag) that wouldn't resist tearing or some water/aqueous material? Condensation from frozen foods, rain on the bags going from the store to the car/home (or vehicle to the home) would make the bag useless.

    I haven't measured the thickness of any brown paper bags/wrapping paper, but I do know there are various basis weights of bag paper. The common brown paper grocery bag is certainly thicker than 0.002".

    Technically, it should be a good paper to use. Strong, and low ash. The dye, or sizing in the paper shouldn't make any problems for your rifle bore. Because it is sized, it may take some warm/hot water (or some added wallpaper paste, or added baking soda-to lower pH, or egg white-to be a binder) to aid in wrapping the bullet.

    I don't know why exactly one side is shiney and the other is dull. Usually, both sides are either shiney or dull. If it is shiney, then the paper probably was processed through a calender stack. This is a serious of steel rolls the act like rolling pins, and polishes the paper (actually, one roll is hard, and the opposite roll is softer). Some are heated. The contact point, or "nip" burnishes the paper, and polishes it. It is referred to as "gloss." Either the shiney or dull should be ok to wrap and shoot.

    As I say in my posts, "If it works for you, then, that's great." I think this is a good idea, and deserves a good wrapping and range session. Please post your results for both with your paper source. I'm interested. Sounds good to me. Just may have to try to find some 0.002" thick ("thin"?) brown paper.

    You may also find similar bag paper that is bleached, which would be whitish in shade. This too could be used. (stong, and low ash, with some water sizing agent added to it).

    Try both, and report back for use. Should be good reading.

    Nice find.
    Last edited by catboat; 10-29-2008 at 09:39 PM.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    One thing you might want to keep in mind with this onion skin paper weight.
    I have two boxes of 100% cotton 7.5# that is .0019 thick and three boxes of 100% cotton 9# that is .002. one of 75% cotton 9# .0016 thick.

  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    I have really found this thread informative, But I would find a bit of effort in the direction of "what is/are the best paper(s) for paper patching?" to be very helpful. Maybe I'm just too dumb, but I've mired down in the going over of Paper in general without a value system attached. I know it's cool and modern to be non directive, but I'm hoping to not have to reinvent the wheel in terms of obtaining the experience to know what works best.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  13. #73
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I like the paper listed above and it's all made by Southworth.
    Match the bullet with the paper you are able to find for the dimension you need.

  14. #74
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    Well I just read this thread, every word, some twice.

    I am getting a barrel bored and rifled for a project that originated with a thread in this Paper Patching forum. The smith made a comment when I told him how I arrived at the cartridge I am building a rifle, the comment was about the abrasiveness of paper and bore wear. NOW I HAVE to ask, point blank.

    Specifically, WHICH paper should be the least abrasive and the strongest mechanically for paper patching? I am thinking that lens cleaning tissue sounds like it has both properties. Also paper bag paper sounds like it has both properties. I would think that lens paper would be about perfect since it is soft enough to not scratch lenses. BUT I may be totally wrong.

    Anyway, thanks to all that have participated in this thread as I now have a pretty decent understanding of the paper requirements and some real understanding of what I definitely don't want in a paper. I may yet give this PPing thing a try! KEEP IT GOING, GUYS!!!!!!!!

    Edd
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  15. #75
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    I received some bullets cast by a guy who bought a case stretcher from us. They are exactly like what I think I want to use, and their diameter is .450". That is the diameter I would prefer...if I can find a paper that gives me the .460" patched-to diameter I want to try.

    I tried my 'onion skin' and only got an increase of 6 or 7 thousandths with two wraps.
    I tried the Ross lens paper and only got ~ 5 thousandths.

    I saw some 'sketching tablets' on my last trip to the grocery store, and tore off a 'sample' from a pad on the bottom of the stack. I figure nobody will buy that one before I have time to get back to the store.

    Two wraps of that 'sketching' paper gives me an increase of 10 thousandths...just the amount I want...but I didn't have enough to play with as much as I need to. I'm still unsure if it will stay plastered on the bullet...and won't know until I can try different degrees of wetness.

    But, it looks to have enough potential that I may (even) be able to shoot a few of these donated bullets...if the temperature ever gets high enough to allow black powder to ignite!

    CM
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  16. #76
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Edd.

    I shoot mostly PP bullets and to date I cant see any wear in my rifles.
    I'm not a now and then shooter I burn average of four cases of powder a year. Last year it was five.

    In Catboats fine information he stated in one of his posts that the paper slitter or cutter (cant remember what he used) has to be changed so the paper dont tear. It must be many many yards more then I can ever shoot up in my life time I would bet.

    I would think that the blackpowder fouling in my barrels wear it more then the paper will.

    LP

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    Edd.

    I shoot mostly PP bullets and to date I cant see any wear in my rifles.
    I'm not a now and then shooter I burn average of four cases of powder a year. Last year it was five.

    In Catboats fine information he stated in one of his posts that the paper slitter or cutter (cant remember what he used) has to be changed so the paper dont tear. It must be many many yards more then I can ever shoot up in my life time I would bet.

    I would think that the blackpowder fouling in my barrels wear it more then the paper will.

    LP
    Thanks lead pot for the info. Now what do you think about the lens paper idea? I realize from all of the reading I did that one doesn't really want a paper that has inorganic additives like clay. If I try this paper patching, I want to start right and get the tecnique down with out the other variables. Understand what I am asking?

    Thanks

    Edd
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  18. #78
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Hi Edd.
    I don't use any paper on a patched bullet that is thinner then the groove is deep in my barrel.
    I don't want the lead to come in contact with the barrel when it gets cut sliding down the barrel.
    I use only a paper that is as close to 100% cotton acid free .002 thick.
    I don't know what your interest is shooting match, or hunting? but I would suggest finding your paper then order a mould for match the paper that you want to patch to the final dimension you want the bullet to be tight or 1 or 2 thousands under bore and the ogive you want the bullet to be a high BC or high kinetic energy for hunting or a in between usable for both jobs.

    Lp.

  19. #79
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    My intent will be using PP boolits for hunting mainly. Thanks for the added info. I think I'll give it a try very soon. I want to get a cigarette roller ( maybe I can find mine from my younger days). Hmmmm. wonder if I can still use a dollar bill to roll with? I'll likely kinda sneak up on this project as soon as I get my new gun built.

    Being a tool maker and a bit of a cheapskate, I am thinking I will first try to make my own mold (just to say I did it). If I am not successful in that I will order one, probably from redriverrick since I know it'll be a quality mold from him.

    Just one more thing (maybe), would air cooled ww be an acceptable alloy?

    Edd
    Last edited by badgeredd; 12-23-2008 at 11:41 AM.
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

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  20. #80
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    badgeredd:

    If you are planning to make your own mould, a really easy one to make is the push out mould.

    I have made these quite successfully for many years ~ usually to test a design or try a different boolit weight. They also work well for PP boolit moulds and Ideal used to market them.

    I have made them in 2 styles: full diameter cylinder with sliding nose form (allows for adjustable weight); and cut with a D bit form tool made to boolit shape including nose but with a small ejection pin forming a flat point, hollow point or formed to the nose.

    The basic design is mentioned in joeb33050's book here;

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36337

    Large diameter moulds can be easily bored but for smaller diameter (.30 cal and under) or stepped moulds, like a nose bore rider, I find it easier to make a D bit form cutter.

    A small lathe is all you need but even a drill press might be adequate.

    I have some pics posted in another thread but I will have to delete some pics if I add more. I can e-mail some to you if you would like to see what I make.

    Longbow

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check