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Thread: Paper 101

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Catboat, yeah, lead will penetrate paper. Pretty often anyway. But getting good clean holes is another issue. If you score a lot of targets or compete, you will find a lot of utility in good target paper.

    For patching another paper that I have used with good results is cooking parchment. It is very tough, does not take on much water and is slick as hell (probably silicone treated). For sure it works, but it does not like to roll easily. Or rather, it unrolls very easily. But if you practice with it, it will work very well and is water resistant (good for hunting) and slick in your bore.

    Brent

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Is there gonna be a problem with the thickness of coffee filter paper? Sunds like it would absorb LLA real good. Will it size down to a much thinner thickness?
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  3. #43
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftiye View Post
    Is there gonna be a problem with the thickness of coffee filter paper? Sunds like it would absorb LLA real good. Will it size down to a much thinner thickness?
    Leftiye,

    I have been preocupied dealing with other problems in the family (wife's illness), and simply haven't had a chance to try it, BUT - I can't recall hearing of ANY PP that wouldn't size down considerably. Might need to apply a little lube by hand so it'll start in the sizer without tearing, but I doubt it.

    Anyone out there had a chance to actually test these yet?

    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    For patching another paper that I have used with good results is cooking parchment. It is very tough, does not take on much water and is slick as hell (probably silicone treated). For sure it works, but it does not like to roll easily. Or rather, it unrolls very easily. But if you practice with it, it will work very well and is water resistant (good for hunting) and slick in your bore.
    Brent
    Hey Brent,

    I think I'd try the mold degreasing trick on that paper: Just get a pan of water boiling, add a squirt of dish detergent and a goodly sheet of paper. Let it boil for a minute, take it of fthe stove and add cold water until you can stand to pull the paper out and lay it flat to dry (preferably under pressure, so it won't wrinkle). This will degrease bullet molds like you wouldn't believe, and will probably work just as well on the paper. Problem is, it MIGHT disintigrate the paper too - But it wouldn't be hard to find out.

    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  5. #45
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    Molly,
    I wouldn't want to degrease it. I am skeptical that would work anyway. Remember this is for cooking so it's made to be hot. Anyway, give it ago sometime, esp if you are worried about barrel wear with paper patching. Tough stuff. Really tough.

    Brent

  6. #46
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    May I?

    Molly suggested that this thread should be included in the book. I know nothing of paper patching, so If Molly says so, I must agree.
    So, I need permission from you posters, especially catboat, to use what you have written. If you're willing, please post here or as a PM. or to joeb33050@yahoo.com.
    Thanks;
    joe b.

  7. #47
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    As for me - NO

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Molly,
    I wouldn't want to degrease it. I am skeptical that would work anyway. Remember this is for cooking so it's made to be hot. Anyway, give it ago sometime, esp if you are worried about barrel wear with paper patching. Tough stuff. Really tough.

    Brent
    Hi Brent,

    My suggestion was from your comment that it was slick and stiff, hard to wrap. I thought that the boiling treatment might correct that. That's all.
    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #49
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    Molly, yes I think it might make it a bit easier in that regard. I thought you were refering to getting the silicone slipperiness out of it. Maybe just some hot tap water would work. Never thought of using heat until catboat suggested it.

    A couple of nights ago, I tried hot water on some Beinfang paper that is also a little hard to wrap and it did not seem to help a whole lot. Did not hurt either.

    I'll try some heat on parchment and see if it does get easier.

    Brent

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Water will tend to weaken the sheet of paper (any cellulosic paper). Water (H20) adds hydrogen to the "dried " hydrogen bonded cellulose fibers, and weakens it. If you soak or boil (speeds reaction), you may have a bowl full of fiber, and not a sheet of paper.

    There is a difference between "wet strength" of a paper (caused by chemical means, using wet strength resions-used to be urea formaldehyde/"UF", and melaminec formaldehyde/ "MF"), and "dry strength" (caused by long fibers, and internal starch for enhanced bonding.) Then, there is "paper sizing" (internal and surface sizing"), which is a chemical means to has some water RESISTANCE of fibers (for sharp printing, and minimizine "feathering") . They sound similar, but they are different. A sheet with wet strength resin (and no internal sizing), will fail the "tongue lick" test (how fast the water travels from one side of the sheet, to show up wet on the other side of the sheet). But the wet strength treated sheet will hold together better when wet (because the formed bonds with the fibers are not hydrogen bonds-which weaken with added water). SIZED paper (internal and external sizing) will have better "tongue lick test" (not a technical term. The technical term is "Hercules Size Test" and reported in seconds, ie "HST=45 seconds"), but the paper will be very weak in short order, as the added water work on the hydrogen bonds between the fiber, and you no have an easily torn sheet.

    A sheet of paper, with wet strength, (i.e., paper towel, and perhaps parchment-I'm not sure what's in parchment paper) will wet out a bit, but not weaken. This is the name, "wet strength." It retains a certain level of it's original dry strength, when it is wetted. I don't remember the actual test, or test standard for this. I think there was some % of the original dry strength: wet strength at a certain condition (i.e., time, temp, pH, etc).

    Another good idea, though, with thinking about parchment paper. It certainly is a strong paper, and without much inorganic filler.

    What you may be able to do to the parchment, is wet it out (soak it a bit) in warm water which has a certain amount of cooked starch (and perhaps a little egg white/protein added to it. The cooked starch/egg white may provide some bonding between the sheets of parchment when wrapped.

    Someone may have mentioned this earlier-or something close.

    If you are using cooked starch, for a binder, any will do ok-but try "root starches." There are two types of starch: cereal and root starches. Cereal starches grow above the ground (corn, wheat). Root starches grow in the ground (potato, tapioca, arrowroot). "Wondra" starch (the stuff that comes in the cylindrical tube for making gravy, is arrowroot starch.

    Root (or "tuber" starches, same thing) are exceptionally clean starches (no fats or oil), and as a result of no oil, they have lower cooking temperatures. I used to work for a potato starch company (AVEBE, Dutch based). I used to joke with customers how clean potato starch was (no strength reducing lipids), by saying "you can go to the super market and buy corn oil. You can't buy potato oil-because there isn't any in a potato to be extracted."

    If you really want to get good starch, write to some of the larger starch companies and ask for a sample of cationic wet end starch for a paper machine. Cationic, means it is positively charged. The positive charge will be like a magnet, and bond to the negative paper fibers with good retention. "Regular" cooking starch (corn, "flour", even Wondra arrowroot starch), are non-charged. As a result, they have very little ionic (charged-based) driving force to attach to a paper fiber.

    If you add "regular" non charged starch (but cooked out, not added "dry"), you will get some bonding-and it should be enough to simply hold two layers of paper together for this application of paper patching.

    How much starch to add? It's not critical. Add the starch powder to cool water, then heat it (don't add starch to hot water, as it will have a tendency to "cook"/swell too fast, and make hard to dissolve "fish eyes" (clear lumps). Something like a teaspoon of dry starch to a cup of cool water will put you in the ball park. Two teaspoons won't hurt-just make things a little thicker. Stir while cooking (you are essentially making clear gravy). You don't have to boil it (212'F). You can fully cook out starch at something like 180'F, in about 10 minutes, with occasional stirring.

    You can then take this cooked starch, and add some to your wetting/soaking bath for the parchment (or onion skin). Perhaps an ounce or two for a cup or cup and a half of warm soaking water. Just mix (or shake) them so you get good mixing. Dosage isn't critical, so play with it. The only drawback you'll see is that the soaking bath will get thicker with added cooked starch, as it cools (this is called "retrogradation." This is when the starch molecules are slowing down, and realigning themselves. It ultimately forms an irreversible gel if the concentrations are "right" (or "wrong".) This isn't going to hurt anything, but in case you experience it, this is what happened. You'll probably see it in you cooked starch container as it cools, as that is the highest solids/concentration of cooling cooked starch. Corn starch (and cereal starches) retrograde. Root starches do not.

    You can add the egg white into the soak bath (with or without the cooked starch). How much? Not critical. Since eggs don't "save well" after opened, hell, add the whole egg white in a cup and a half of warm water, and mix. Then add the cooked corn/Wondra/flour starch to the mixture. (doesn't matter the order, egg-starch or starch-egg). Hope that concoction holds together.

    To safe time, It would probably just be easier to buy a bag of wall paper paste, and just at some of that for your warm paper soaking bath. I think, that's what I'd do. It's a true paste. But whatever you want to do...

    As always, try it, and see what happens. Sounds like an interesting little project to do on a quiet rainy day.
    Last edited by catboat; 08-22-2008 at 10:43 PM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Here is an excellent on-line (and free) source for paper making concepts in the field of "wet end chemistry." Wet end chemistry refers to the "wet end" of the paper machine, and the interaction of the various additives used there.

    I used it a fair amount in my training classes to my colleagues.

    http://www4.ncsu.edu/~hubbe/MiniEncy.htm

  12. #52
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    Fellows, I'd like to ask a favor: Joe B. asked for permission to quote this thread in his Cast Bullets book a few messages back. I haven't seen but one response, which was "NO". Even that isn't clear: Does it mean "No, I don't mind being quoted" or does it mean "No, I don't want to be quoted."?

    Lemme give him a plug here. For those who don't know, the book is a NON PROFIT enterprise detailing cast bullet technology and techniques be something like two hundred authors and counting. You can download it for free, or you can order it on a disc for $5, delivered. There's also a hardbound version. Joe just handles the editing and making sure that anyone that wants one can get it.

    Joe keeps the highest standards in his work. Legally, this forum is public, and anything posted here is in the public domain. Joe doesn't even have to ask. But the fact that he asks anyhow illustrates the integrity with which he handles all his work. In editing, Joe will delete any comments from anyone that doesn't want to be quoted. For those who don't mind, he'll also quote by moniker name, or by real name, your choice. He can also attribute comments to "Anon."

    I'd really appreciate some sort of consensus for this. Joe's trying to be a good guy, but he wants permission. If anyone doesn't want to be included, a PM is all it will take. All Joe's doing is sharing tips and techniques, the same thing we do here with every reply we make. This thread offers a great deal of information about the hows and whys of paper selection, and I think it would make a great contribution to the book. I've sure learned a lot, and I'm sure it will be interesting for others too.

    Regards,
    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  13. #53
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I've contributed anything of value here, but I don't mind anything I post here being quoted, in a book or otherwise. It is a public forum, as you said.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    I haven't seen but one response, which was "NO". Even that isn't clear: Does it mean "No, I don't mind being quoted" or does it mean "No, I don't want to be quoted."?
    Well, to quote Joe, "If you're willing, please post here or as a PM."

    BrentD's immediately following reply was 'no', and it was capitalized...which seems to indicate he is not willing.

    For myself, you may use anything you wish...but it would be inaccurate to portray it as 'expert testimony'.
    CM
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    Well, to quote Joe, "If you're willing, please post here or as a PM."

    BrentD's immediately following reply was 'no', and it was capitalized...which seems to indicate he is not willing.

    For myself, you may use anything you wish...but it would be inaccurate to portray it as 'expert testimony'.
    CM
    Thanks for that consent Charlie, and yes, I got that distinct impression too. But you know what they say about assuming. And there will be no portrayal of anyone as expert. The pattern used heretofore has been to use simple quotes, and to let the contributor's skill speak fo itself. There are no guarantees for the data, and thus no liabilities. It's just guys like us talking about what the've seen and wondered and tried.

    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  16. #56
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    JoeB emailed me, and I replied to him this morning, giving him my consent to use this thread (at least my comments) for the book/e-book/cd/posting in question.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master ktw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    I'm interested finding some target paper. Paper that would be manilla or white in color and which would have some thickness but produce really nice holes. Some targets like Edelman pellet targets are excellent, but where can one find paper like this? I think it must be very short-fibered paper.
    Two suggestions...

    1) Back when we used to send people to the field to collect data on paper we had the plot cards printed on "card stock". This was a heavier, thicker sheet of paper that stood up well to a fair amount of abuse (the information/data was valuable). Any printer should know what "card stock" is. This is similar to the 3x5 index cards, but in 8.5x11 sheets.

    2) I have occasionally been using the extra heavy duty, molded paper plates for targets. This is more of a thin cardboard than a paper. They stand up well and cut clean holes but their 3 dimensional structure doesn't offer much in the way of easily filing them away later. Some of the cheaper, thin cardboards may offer what you are looking for.

    -ktw
    Last edited by ktw; 08-24-2008 at 07:40 AM.

  18. #58
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    All I do for targets is print them out (or photocopy them) on normal paper, then glue them to old bits of cardboard (old boxes, the back of leagal pads, whatever). Gives a reasonably clean hole when anything from BP 45/70 to 4000fps+ 22/250Imp hits it, and I get it from work for nothing.
    WHEN IN DOUBT, USE MORE CLOUT!

  19. #59
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    Fellows,

    I've been employed in a cleaning facility, where 'dirt' (ANY particulates) was monitored with great stringency. We used a special grade of an incredibly tough, lint free paper instead of rag wipers. I happened to have a few sheets of it in my car when the need to wipe up some beverage occurred. While I'd been aware of their strength before, the fact that they didn't lose much strength - if any - to moisture suddenly suggested that it might be the ultimate PP material. I'll try to find sources and ID info, but wanted to alert you to check out lint-free papers if you are interested in following this up.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    I am still waiting to hear from Ross about the thickness of their lens paper. Unfortunately, I expect them to say it runs about .001", when .002" would satisfy me in two wraps (I think).
    After a couple of false starts, Ross did finally send me a sample of their lens paper.
    As it turns out, it measures .002" when using my dial caliper.
    Comparing it to 9-pound onionskin, they are very similar in thickness.

    The onionskin is 'harder' and 'slicker', while the lens paper has some 'texture' to it and (as expected) a softer 'feel'.
    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check