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Thread: Paper 101

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    Catboat, thanks for your reply, I am glad to see this is a sticky cause I think that there is a hell of alot of information in here to digest.

    P.S. Thanks for that link Montana Charlie, I could not believe the price of the 25% stuff, either, then you have to add shipping.
    WHEN IN DOUBT, USE MORE CLOUT!

  2. #22
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    Charlie, if you think that odd, try this. Go into a Walmart. Look at the price of a watch battery in the jewelry department, and then go look at the same battery in the electronics department. You have to be a careful shopper, even in the same store!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  3. #23
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    You find the same 100% markup when looking at ceramic media...or anything else that is commonly used elsewhere, but has found a niche in BPCR.
    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    Montana, mate, I don't know if it is the same stuff that you were talking about, but I just found some "Lens Tissue" on the computer desk in front of me (I am stuffed if i know how it got here). When folded to 4 thicknesses, it goes .0035-.0040 thick. It is very smooth, but quite tough, did not tear easily at all. When it did tear, it tore along the grain, very straight and with a few long fibres that seemed to hang on longer than the rest. The only problem with this stuff is that each sheet measures 4 inches by 3 inches, maybe 2 patches per sheet?
    WHEN IN DOUBT, USE MORE CLOUT!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    We have a similar lens tissue at work that we use for cleaning our safety glasses. It's strong, about .001" thick, and wets well, but the problem is that it has soap in it and won't stick to itself when rolled on a boolit. The same paper without the soap might be perfect.
    Catboat, this paper is almost completely transparent when wet, and looks like onion skin when dry. Does this mean it doesn't have much sizing or other fillers in it? Do you know of a source for this stuff without the lens cleaning soap?

  6. #26
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    I am still waiting to hear from Ross about the thickness of their lens paper. Unfortunately, I expect them to say it runs about .001", when .002" would satisfy me in two wraps (I think).

    But, I discovered something by accident that might interest you.

    I found a sale on eBay for some paper that interests me, but the seller doesn't own a micrometer. So, she has no way to measure the thickness of one sheet.
    But, in our discussion, she mentioned that the ream is one inch thick.

    When you divide 1 inch by 500 sheets, you find that a single sheet must be .002" (gasp!).
    If you're looking for .0025" paper, that would be the same as a ream that is 1.25 inches thick.

    Even a poorly made ruler will measure well enough for decent precision, when any error is reduced 500 times.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  7. #27
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
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    This is just a speculative question born out om my vast ignorance on the topic, but I note the apparently common availability of some rather strong grades of paper that wet well without seriously losing strength. (I'm assuming that these are both real cellulosic paper rather than felts with polyester or acrylic fibers.) They would also seem to be substantially free of abrasive pigments and other materials that could cause problems, and seem to be available in at least a couple of different thicknesses.
    I'm referring to
    a) Tea bag paper, and
    b) Coffee filter paper.
    Could someone comment on the desireability of something like these for PP material? Has anyone tried them? (I haven't). How would one go about finding usable quantities of them, in a usable form?

    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  8. #28
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    This is just a speculative question born out om my vast ignorance on the topic, but I note the apparently common availability of some rather strong grades of paper that wet well without seriously losing strength. (I'm assuming that these are both real cellulosic paper rather than felts with polyester or acrylic fibers.) They would also seem to be substantially free of abrasive pigments and other materials that could cause problems, and seem to be available in at least a couple of different thicknesses.
    I'm referring to
    a) Tea bag paper, and
    b) Coffee filter paper.
    Could someone comment on the desireability of something like these for PP material? Has anyone tried them? (I haven't). How would one go about finding usable quantities of them, in a usable form?

    Molly
    Hmm. I'm on my way down to raid the coffee machine, and will hopefully have a report for you soon.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    You guys are really thinking. I can't say I'm impressed, because I know there are many sharp minds on this board. I guess I can report, I'm happy people are thinking about this application.

    1)
    Comment: "...this paper is almost completely transparent when wet, and looks like onion skin when dry. Does this mean it doesn't have much sizing or other fillers in it? Do you know of a source for this stuff without the lens cleaning soap? "

    My view: If it is near transparent when DRY would indicate lower opacity. This can be from either light basis weight, or low filler/ash content. When wetted, the scattering ability of fiber is significantly reduces, so opacity goes does (can anyone say "wet tee shirt contest?" - have to keep this in practical terms). Sizing doesn't really have an major impact on opacity, but I would suspect, that surface sizing + surface starch would slightly reduce opacity (as it hampers the scattering coeficient of the fiber, or "makes them smoother") Even an ash filled sheet of medium to high levels will have lower opacity when wetted.

    There are some "chemicals" used in some paper process applications that are designed to be "rewetting agents/aids." Theya re adding to help the fiber get wet faster. Interestingly enough, most of these "rewetting agents" are surfactants, which lower surface tension. In general terms, surfactants are soaps. Your soaped lens paper should wet out nicely. Due to the lower surface tension, it is interfering with the fiber bonding (which is why it is used, to make the fibers able to absorb water. This is reversing the hydrogen bonding that normal cellulosic fibers (and the addition of internal wet end (cationic, or positively charged) starch is added- to generate BETTER hydrogen bonding between fibers, and then MORE strength. You just swerved into the "anti-strength" wetting agent. It was the exactly the SAME thing discussed early, just the complete opposite response-but the same concept: hydrogen bonding (maximizing it vs minimizing it).

    I don't know of a source of Lens paper with or without soap-just keep looking, and asking vendors.supplkiers.distributors, and looking in the products "ingredients" list. At least you know what look for, and avoid it. Really good question.

    2) comment:
    " a) Tea bag paper, and
    b) Coffee filter paper.
    Could someone comment on the desireability of something like these for PP material?"

    My input: Excellent question. Both tea bag and coffee filter are good examples of non-writing paper. They are designed to be strong when wet, and be porous (so water flows through them). Just apply what I've touched on in the first post.

    They are both strong, due to using long softwood kraft fibers, and minimal about of short fiber. They don't want a smooth surface for writing and printing, and don't mind "poor formation", as it increases pass through/porosity (and yes for you tech heads, there are two measurements of porosity, so that "more porosity" could mean a "tighter" or the opposite "more open" sheet: Scheffield and Gurley units. By mentioning "more porosity" I mean "more air/liquid pass through.")

    Anyway, the strength you are seeing isn't "sizing," it is "wet strength." A wet-strength resion is added, and gets cured in the heated dryer section of the paper machine. It's why paper towels are strong when wet (remember the comment about "Rosie's Diner and Bounty paper towels?)

    Coffee filter could be and EXCELLENT paper patching material. One paper mill customer I had used to buy up truckloads of the leftover coffee filter paper (after the circular filters were cut out. We used to joke that they were buying "paper holes."). The mill used them as a cheap replacement for the expensive long softwood kraft fiber. Due to the wet strength resin in them, they were difficult to repulp. The pH had to be increased to moderate to high alkaline pH (can't remember, but maybe ~ pH 9 ish?), and then they had to be process in a special high-energy pulper called a "Barracuda" (like a big blender). Because the coffee filters are wet-strength paper, and not "sized" paper, they may wet out and wrap well. You'll have to try it and report back. If you are having trouble wetting them out, try the hot water and baking soda mixture. This will increase the pH, and help soften the wet strength. No fillers are used. I really like this idea. I never thought of it. Thanks for sharing. Could be another winner. I don't know the source. The paper mill that used to use the "paper holes" shut down (Eastern Fine Paper, in Brewer, ME).

    Tea bags are similar. High strength, long fiber, wet strength resin, no filler, not sized. They may work, but tough to get a source of non-converted tea bag paper, like coffee filters.

    Since these papers have high degree of wet-strength resins in them, they will be likely difficult to have achesion in the wrapping/drying stage. Coffee filter paper may be too thick. Do some caliper measurements.
    Last edited by catboat; 03-07-2019 at 11:27 AM.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    catboat,
    This has all been really interesting. But can I would like to ask a different question.

    I'm interested finding some target paper. Paper that would be manilla or white in color and which would have some thickness but produce really nice holes. Some targets like Edelman pellet targets are excellent, but where can one find paper like this? I think it must be very short-fibered paper.

    Thanks,
    Brent

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    BrentD

    The closest grade of paper to "target paper" would be "construction paper" ( and would be the lowest cost), and "blotter paper", for replacing desk blotter covering. Blotter paper is likely more expensive than construction paper.

    Target paper is indeed short fibered paper. It does have some long fibered softwood kraft to give it some structure and strength so it can be manufactured and used. (a sheet of pure short fiber is mush, and can stand on it's own.).

    Think about it. What property does the papermaker want for target paper?

    --Sharp holes
    --some printability
    --some strenth (for production efficiency-so the machine doesn't always break, and "hangabilty" + stiffness for the customer/shooter.

    That's what the product development group decides to invent this new grade for this "new" application of paper.

    They then formulate a furnish (fiber mix) to accomplish this.
    Sharp holes: need short fiber. Groudwood is short fiber. It Is bulky, and cheap, but weak. Add a good portion of this fiber.

    Some printabilty: targets will have black/red/green ink for printing scoring rings, and target information. You'll need some sizing. Groundwood can't be made on alkaline pH (brightness reverison), so it made on acid pH or neutral pH systems. If acid system used, the sizing used is alum rosin. They test to determine how much sizing/sharpness is needed for the applicaiton. Dosages of alum and rosin are adjusted to get the needed sizing.

    Strength and hangability: the papermachine isn't going to make the owners any money if it doesn't run efficiently, without breaks. The paper needs to have some strength-strong enough to hold to gether on the target hangers, but not too strong. We want the bullet holes to form easier and crisply. "Use as little long fibered softwood Kraft as possible" is the order from management. (it's the most expensive fiber.).

    Stiffness can be achieved by having a thick sheet. We need bulk. Groundwood fiber is bulky. Course grind the groundwood, add a lot of it to the sheet to get a certain thickness. Groundwood is cheap. Don't bleach it, (more cost), keep it natural. May have to add a touch of biege dye to uniform tint from batch to batch over the years for consistency.

    In short, it is "just" thick, and MUCH weaker, newsprint.

    Make the paper. Shoot holes in it.

    It should be noted that due to these fiber properties, the application is for clean holes (weak sheet). The paper is poor for folding (too thick, the outer side of the sheet has too far to move, and stresses. With the short fiber, it cracks easily. The paper is poor for paper patching (too thick, too weak, too much short weak fiber-groundwood, and not enough long strong softwood kraft.) In some ways, it is the direct opposite of lens paper, if you thick about the fiber properties, and how the paper is designed to perform.

    Viola. You just brokedown the papermaker's thought process for designing a sheet of paper for a certain "new" application. The machine gets a couple of extra days of production per year, which helps depreciation of equipment, and fixed costs, and keeps the paper mill from shutting down. As a result, you get a nice year end bonus from management-they let you keep your job!

    That's exactly how its done. You essentially did the product development yourself with the info given earlier. You get an "A" for paying attention in class. Well done.
    ---------------

    Manilla paper (folders) is designed to be strong, and durable. It has a high level of long fiber.

    Liner board (like shirt/shoe/cold cereal/granola bar box material) may be your next best bet. This is much stronger than target paper (it is many thickness thick, as it is made on an entirely different beast of a paper machine, called a "cylinder machine"). Liner board paper is made essentially with a much junk paper as the papermaker can get his/her hands on. Old news print (onp), old corrugated containers (OCC). It has a fiber mix that is both long , short and medium. Perhaps you can scrounge up some liner board from your local transfer station/"dump", and made an ink stamp of your desired target aiming point to stamp on the insides of all those consumer packaged goods boxed in liner board you see in the grocery store. Linerboard would make a good target material
    Last edited by catboat; 03-07-2019 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for the grade, but where can I BUY the stuff? 90% of the problem with paper for anything special is sourcing the stuff.

    Brent
    Last edited by BrentD; 08-19-2008 at 10:56 PM.

  13. #33
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    I don't know if anything will come of it but, I just requested a sample of tea filter paper from ZHEJIANG KAN SPECIALITIES MATERIAL Co., LTD.
    I tried to type politely, clearly, and slowly, so that I would be understood.
    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    I'm gonna iron out some coffee filters! Big ones.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    "Thanks for the grade, but where can I BUY the stuff? 90% of the problem with paper for anything special is sourcing the stuff.

    Brent"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Don't know. Never ran into a mill that made it. It's not a grade that is made that often, or in great quantity. Probably only made seasonally, and on small machines. Sorry, no sources known for non-printed target paper.

    One more thought. The type of paper kids use, "contruction paper" is similar to target paper (not that strong, and feels bulky (probably has groundwood in it for decently sharp bullet holes). Go to your nearest Wall-of-china-mart, or dollar store and stock up on it. Maybe that's the way to go. It's not as heavy as target paper, but it's pretty heavy. It probably has more longer fiber than true target paper, but should do ok.

    I've read that lead bullets fired from guns can penetrate just about most kinds of paper, so you'll probably get a bullet hole in anything you use.

    Man, I'm spending too much time on this site.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Specific Paper Question: my brother and I each bought a ream of Fidelity brand Onion Skin paper last year at Quigley. It is stamped Sub. 9-cockle 34g/m (2 as in squared) 100% Cotton Content. The 500 sheets mike about an inch and a sixteenth thick. My brother has begun making PP bullets with a Kaqlynuik mould for his 50-90 Shiloh. I hate to start if this paper or a same thickness replacement cannot be found.
    It is Esleeck, made byEsleeck Mfg, Turner Falls, MA.
    Rich
    Last edited by Idaho Sharpshooter; 08-20-2008 at 12:43 AM.

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho Sharpshooter View Post
    Specific Paper Question: my brother and I each bought a ream of Fidelity brand Onion Skin paper last year at Quigley. It is stamped Sub. 9-cockle 34g/m (2 as in squared) 100% Cotton Content. The 500 sheets mike about an inch and a sixteenth thick. My brother has begun making PP bullets with a Kaqlynuik mould for his 50-90 Shiloh. I hate to start if this paper or a same thickness replacement cannot be found.
    It is Esleeck, made byEsleeck Mfg, Turner Falls, MA.
    Rich


    What's the question?

    If it works, and you like it, buy more. If you know where is it made (I used to call on the Esleeck mill-they make excellent paper), call them if you can't find any locally. If they don't sell it to you (they like to sell pallets/truckloads of the stuff), they can get you in contact with one of their distributors.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    coffee filter paper

    coffee filter paper -

    I found two types at work yesterday: a folded funnel shaped filter, and a bowl shape with ruffled sides. The funnel shaped paper is about .0045" thick, but the bowl shaped paper is only .003" thick. Both wetted very easily, and were strong when wet. I patched a bullet with each, and was able to twist the tails very tightly.
    Only problem was this paper doesn't seem to stick to itself well. It's ok, and isn't peeling apart, but it doesn't seem ideal. Also, now that they've dried overnight, I can hold the tails and spin the bullet in the paper. Of course, that could just be my poor wrapping technique, I don't know.

  19. #39
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
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    coffee filter paper -

    > I found two types at work yesterday: a folded funnel shaped filter, and a bowl shape with ruffled sides. The funnel shaped paper is about .0045" thick, but the bowl shaped paper is only .003" thick. Both wetted very easily, and were strong when wet. I patched a bullet with each, and was able to twist the tails very tightly.

    That's kind of neat. Thanks for the feedback.

    > Only problem was this paper doesn't seem to stick to itself well. It's ok, and isn't peeling apart, but it doesn't seem ideal. Also, now that they've dried overnight, I can hold the tails and spin the bullet in the paper. Of course, that could just be my poor wrapping technique, I don't know.

    Not too sure what's going on here, but how do you apply the PP?

    If you put them on by hand, I can see where technique could be a problem, but if you're using a cigarette roller as I first recommended, technique shouldn't enter into it. Also, the old fashioned roller allowed you to 'adjust' the tightness of the wrap by how snug the rubberized sheet is - which could be varied easily by just pressing on the slack side as you flip the lever. I don't know about the two roller type - I haven't used them.

    If that doesn't do the job, I think I'd try adding just a TINY pinch of flour to the patch water to make a very dilute library paste. The dried patch should stick well to itself, but the paste (dried) would be very brittle, and would still cut into strips for easy release at the muzzle. Worth trying anyhow.

    Good Luck,

    Molly
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  20. #40
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Puttin them on by hand Molly. Just haven't got around to the cigarrette roller yet.

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