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Thread: Weird things happened with my 454 Casull today

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I ask about the bases because I once sized some .452 X 200g. L-RNF's that were oval in shape, caused from a tiny bit of Pb on the face of the mould.
    I believe I measured several at .460"...started to throw them back into the pot and for some reason went ahead and sized directly to .4525" just to see if they would size easily...without a bit of Hornady's 'One Shot' lubricant they pushed harder than usual, but with the lube they sized easily.

    What I did notice is that the sizing pushed material from the bottom drive band lower than the base and formed a ragged skirt partially around the circumference. When I sat the cast on it's base it was noticeably crooked from that extended skirt. They went directly back to the pot but I'm quite sure that if I had loaded them they wouldn't have been any part of a group those rounds shot, they would have been out of group but don't know how far...kinda wished I had gone ahead and shot them to see what would happen.
    What is it they say about 'hindsight'.?. "It's 20/20"!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    Most likely way too fast for that plain base little guy. Slow them down if you can or use another boolit.

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master

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    PCed and Hi-Tek bullets are not meant to be lubed. Who knows what effect lube has on Hi-Tek bullets, could cause skidding? Try some bullets without lubing.
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    PCed and Hi-Tek bullets are not meant to be lubed. Who knows what effect lube has on Hi-Tek bullets, could cause skidding? Try some bullets without lubing.
    What, exactly...is skidding?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaDoubleJ View Post
    I still lube my coated boolits. I don't trust my ability to coat yet, I keep having problems with HiTek. They also say not to size prior to coating, so yes, I cast/coat/alox/size .457-.454-.452.
    "I don't trust my ability to coat yet"
    PC , knock off all excess powder PC can add up to .005 to the diameter, HiTek around .001, bake 15 min @ 400° in a preheated oven. After bollits are cool, hammer the bollit flat. If there is no chipping/flaking they are good.


    There are several Hi-Tek threads that can help you with your Hi-Tek coating problems. Check the threads or PM me, I'd be glad to help.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Boy! GRMPS...You really got mad at those innocent little boolits...what did they ever do to you?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  7. #27
    Boolit Man
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    I've lubed every coated boolit I've ever fired, including ones that I purchased already HiTek'd. These are the first ones to ever under-perform, the rest just went faster. Here's my most recent failure at HiTeking, first time I've failed the smash test, I usually just coat too thick and lumpy.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy rr2241tx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaDoubleJ View Post
    I still lube my coated boolits. I don't trust my ability to coat yet, I keep having problems with HiTek. They also say not to size prior to coating, so yes, I cast/coat/alox/size .457-.454-.452.
    My bases still seem flat after sizing, but I've never really looked that closely.
    The Lee 452-252 is a Keith style boolit. I've tried the 340s at .454, but the Redding seating die wants nothing to do with that, I may talk to Redding about it, see what they think.
    Have you measured those Lee bullets? I sent tw of those molds back because they were .462” and could not be sized to .452-.454” without dmajor league distortion.
    rr2241tx
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  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master

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    "Bullet skidding" is when a bullet does not grab the rifling and "skids" down the barrel. Normally leaves leading. Often from too soft alloy driven a bit too fast.
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Yeah...sorta, but if what you describe was going on...that Pb that was stripped by the lands would look like a junkyard in there and the next subsequent rounds would iron it down to where it would be atrocious. A continuous depositing.
    In a case like that I doubt seriously that the lube used to size had any influence at all.

    I would define skidding as the cast engraving with wider tracks than the lands measure, because it will not spin up quick enough, too soft to grab the lands and start...allowing gas cutting through that wider land track on the cast...there's the reason for Pb depositing from stem to stern in a barrel that has no defects.

    I think...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  11. #31
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    now, I have a question, you said your pistol is a Taurus raging judge? does that mean it can chamber 410's? and if so, does that mean the rifling starts either 2.5 or 3"s down the barrel. that's how the 45-410 bond arms are. just a thought
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  12. #32
    Boolit Man
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    241, I didn't measure them pre-sizing, but running them through the .452 sizing die was cake and they barely changed, and they do come out at .452 now.

    Rebel, yes, it chambers 410 bore, 45 Colt, and 454 Casull. The "freebore" if you will is like an inch before the forcing cone. There is a step down in the cylinder that mates up with the case mouth of the 454, which I need to measure for someone above that requested it. It should be a sloppy, inaccurate, terrible range toy. For some reason though, it's surprisingly accurate, all things considered, and not bad to shoot as it weighs 4.5#.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master
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    You are pushing them too fast. In addition, I learned early on that AA#9 (and other slow burning ball powders) will hang fire and squib when used behind light for caliber boolits in the .454 Casull. That Lee boolit is a good one and shoots very well in all my .454's, but you need to use a faster burning powder and keep velocity below 1300 to 1400 fps.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Yeah...sorta, but if what you describe was going on...that Pb that was stripped by the lands would look like a junkyard in there and the next subsequent rounds would iron it down to where it would be atrocious. A continuous depositing.
    In a case like that I doubt seriously that the lube used to size had any influence at all.

    I would define skidding as the cast engraving with wider tracks than the lands measure, because it will not spin up quick enough, too soft to grab the lands and start...allowing gas cutting through that wider land track on the cast...there's the reason for Pb depositing from stem to stern in a barrel that has no defects.

    I think...
    Rather than ask me, do a search. "Bullet skidding" is a common term used often on this site. No need for me to defend the term nor how it is used. Just ask some casters with knowledge of how cast bullets preform in rifled barrels...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I get what your saying, I just can't relate to the term 'skidding' when it comes to this situation. When I hear the term 'skidding' I immediately think of a driver slamming on the brakes and see a long track of rubber laid down on the road...it just doesn't compute, I think it is misleading and implies that the entire cast blew through the barrel and stripped all the Pb off the entire area engaging the height of the lands, leaving that stripped Pb behind the cast to blow out of the barrel behind it leaving some that vaporized and chilled onto the interior and gets ironed in on subsequent shots...I guess I have an inflexible imagination or something worse?

    It's Pb to soft to grab onto the lands and start the initial RPM wind-up immediately. The lands impart an incredible amount of torque on a very thin layer of the cast. I would imagine that if we could catch our rounds somehow without nose damage we might see that many harder Pb blends might have some degree of wider land tracking in that first part of the engraving on the front drive band but since the tinsel strength is adequate the cast is able to track the land efficiently (hang onto the track) after a little further engraving, not widening the land engraving all the way to the base and preventing subsequent gassing.
    Who knows...I wish there was a technical name that better described it in my limited understanding...I keep seeing tire tracks!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I didn't coin the term. If it's misleading to some (not me, but I'm a lifelong machinist/mechanic and knew right away what the term meant), then perhaps they should start a movement to standardise terminology for bullet (boolit?) casting. BTW "skidding" is a term commonly used for any two surfaces rubbing together without much effect on each other. Cutting tools can "skid" when improperly adjusted or dull...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  17. #37
    Boolit Man
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    Well, after a pretty thorough search of the internet, there's no such boolit mold out there as what I'm after. There's a guy on the 458 forum that had one made by mountain moulds, it's a TC bore rider with grease grooves and a gas check. Can be seen here: http://458socomforums.com/index.php?topic=3086.0
    The post is old, and no updates were made as to performance.
    It seems my best bet will be to have Accurate Molds make something for me, so hopefully you all can help me design it.
    Needs to feed in an AR platform. So far I've had no feeding issues with the Lee 457-340 or the Hornady FTX, so a TC nose should work great, and they look cool. Meplat size? It's just for targets and steel and maybe some fruit.
    Gas check seems to be the way to go.
    Real grease grooves? Grease "ridges" like Lee uses? In the 458 coating will be necessary due to the gas system, but I might be able to get away with just lubing in the 454. If that's the case, the grooves will need to be deep enough to hold enough lube after I've sized down by .006 or so.
    350gr is my target weight. Accurate says I need to provide the dimensions that will create that volume. No idea how to do that other than copy a round/flat design and make it slightly longer.

    Help me spend some money boolit masters.

    PS - Mountain Molds has a pretty awesome boolit designer on the website.
    Last edited by ThaDoubleJ; 11-19-2017 at 01:34 PM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Man
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    Think I'm gonna go with Mountain Molds and their designer, but I'm pretty short on designing boolit experience, any pointers? Going TC with a long nose and slightly small meplat, gas check, lube grooves, 350gr.

    Gonna do slightly smaller bearing to groove ratio since both guns are slow twist and once I size to .452 I want somewhere to put lube.

    What else should I take into account?

  19. #39
    Boolit Man
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    I think for now I'll just keep using the 340 Lee sized down to .452 in the Casull, but I still need a mold for the 458 SOCOM. I went on Mountain Molds and basically made a lead copy of Hornady's FTX 325, with a 50% meplat and a gas check shank. Should I do a shank for Gator checks or Hornady checks? How about the crimp groove, do I really need one, or should I delete it and just use my FCD to close up the case mouth after seating?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check