Dan Wesson .41 Magnum load development pics

[Whistler]

A Dan Wesson 741-VH with a 10" barrel landed in my safe the other day. Today I got the chance to try some loads.
The gun is probably made in the early 80's and the tape measure gave the barrel in at 9.6" from muzzle to front of cylinder. Trigger is amazingly smooth and lockup seems OK, there is some play on the cylinder in rotation, but none what so ever in the barrel/cylinder gap.

Barrel crown is NON EXISTENT, I was very surprised to see this. Previous owner is a good friend who said he barely shot it. Owner before that I was able to reach, he claimed jacketed Hornady and Remington bullets with 10% above MAX loads with Vihtavuori N110 where the only way to get accuracy out of it. I do not doubt him, but I may contribute that to the barrel crown. Less velocity may mean longer time to be affected by a misdirected gas flow around the muzzle?

Testing procedure:
Gun was shot from a rested position at 50 meters (55 yards). Factory iron sights. I compete regularly in what we in Sweden call Magnum Precision Shooting, where we lie rested with the gun between our knees with a gas flow protection on the knees. On the international pistol target a good gun should hold the center 10 ring circle. Several of my revolvers do. Outside temperature was 25 degrees (-3.7 degrees Celcius).

Following are some pictures with load and bullet data. All loads where shot at the same target. After each load I checked the barrel for leading. No leading was visible at all until the very last load with .412" bullets. The pictures are presented in the order they where shot; N340 lubed RCBS, N105 lubed RCBS, N110 lubed RCBS, N105 coated RCBS, N105 coated Lee, N105 coated ARES, N110 RCBS .412.

The powder coated bullets where clearly outperformed by the traditional lubed ones, even with the same loads of N105. I partly contribute this to uniform bases, the bases on the powder coated bullets where not pretty due to PC getting extruded when sizing nose first. The factory made ARES bullets hade nice bases and clearly performed on par with my lubed bullets.

The one powder that stands out is the two loads with N110. If it comes from the slightly lower pressure or a sweet spot in the velocity department is hard to say. It was however interesting to note that my ACWW .410 were leading free, while there was leading with the .412" in the same load of N110. The alloy and lube was unknown, the bullets came with the gun. They where however cast with the same mold as that also came with the gun.

For competition use we are still off target. I need a load that will hold the center circle of 1" at 50 meters. The RCBS bullet does however seem capable of accuracy compared to the others tested and since the leading is not an issue I will not yet go to a gas checked version. I will try the next batch water quenched but still sized to .410. I will also have the barrel crowned properly and perhaps have my sizing die lapped to .411. The .410 bullets are not freely dropping through the cylinder throats, but neither do they need that firm push that I like.

(I aplogize for the white patches on black. I ran out of black patches)

[475AR]

I also have a DW 41 mag and 2 things I have found out shooting it is that mine prefers .411 diameter for cast bullets. Mine also likes heaver bullets driven to moderate velocity (250-320gr in the 1000-1200fps) I use wheel weight lead and water drop them to harden them a bit. I am not sure if you can get LBT bullets in Sweden but One of the best bullets I have used is the LBT 250-265gr LFN several casters here in the USA cast them with or with out gas checks. That bullet @ 1200-1300 fps is very accurate in my DW and Smith & Wesson 657 and other 41mag guns I have. I have just started using HI-TEK coating and so far other guns I have used it in have had great results. I am also going to experiment with HI-TEK and plain based gas checks to see if there are any difference in accuracy between the same bullet with and without the pb gascheck in the same loads.

[Whistler]

Same load as before, but I ran a brass lap with some silicone carbide paste in the muzzle.
The higher point of impact may be to the retightening of the barrel after lapping the muzzle crown. Basically no difference, but not worse either. Load ladder and water dropping are next trials.

[44man]

No crown means nothing if straight across and rifling is even. The crown had two purposes, to prevent damage if the gun was dropped or hit on the muzzle and to remove a burr. Those early guns shot great. I don't know the twist rates so can't comment but I see spin problems and primer too. Use a standard primer, NOT a mag. I also see case tension issues so when loading see if all feel the same when seating. Your gun should shoot 1/2" at 50 meters from positions you use.
A tip for you. If the barrel nut is tight, pour boiling water through the bore with a hose and funnel.
The barrel should be under tension and not loose.

[Whistler]

Lube star on muzzle was not uniform, clearly portraiting an uneven gas flow, hence the lapping of the muzzle crown.

Primers used are CCI Large Pistol.

All bullets feel the same when seated. Crimp is Redding Profile die, it usually gives great results.

Barrel nut is tight, since I took the barrel out to do the crown and then made sure it was tight with a 0.002" gap.

[44man]

Watch the profile die. Some boolits do not fit and will seat different. Your boolit should go through the die easy. It was made for jacketed.

[Whistler]

This has to be first time I've handled a gun where a load ladder shows basically no difference in groupings.
Still no leading.

(sights adjusted 8 clicks down for elevation between groups)

[44man]

Vertical stringing is usually boolits being released before burn is good. A primer can move the boolit early and that changes air space for each shot.
You might want to tighten case tension, I have to use water dropped for a harder boolit to resist the brass. I use Hornady dies and the expander only goes in about 3/8" so my boolit is the final expander.
I see your point for doing the crown.
Then boolit lube is very important and I would experiment more with it. I found Felix lube will out shoot about every lube with LBT soft Blue next. There are few lubes that work in a revolver.
Your primer should be OK, I use Fed 150's but see no difference with CCI 300's.
I have found 296 works best for powder but you are in Sweden and I like most here, am glad to know you. But your journey has started. Revolvers can be the hardest ever. Don't give up, some stupid little thing never thought of can turn it around.
The DW at the start was a wonder but when they were bought out, they went to pot. It really depends on when the gun was made. I don't have the history of them.

[Whistler]

Water quenched and as cast (not sized) at ~.412. Hand lubed with same lube as all other tests (50/50 beeswax / lithium grease).
Still no difference in group size... But also still no leading.

[44man]

My friend, change lube. It is NOT leading to worry about. Lube has a drastic affect on case tension. Slippery is no good at all. Soft and sticky is still best. Too hard and lube will not all spin off at the muzzle exit. The boolit should be totally clean of lube at exit.
I have Ben's Red and it works great in my rifle but NOT in the revolvers. It needs some lanolin for more sticky. I have tested every lube I could buy and make. Many will never be used again.
I think lanolin is needed.
Now my friend, Glen at White Label Lubes makes good stuff, however he also sells what guys want.
I love his CR and he made the best BPCR lube I ever tried but can't get ingredients anymore.
I never record failures or keep books with bad. But I do have one picture to show two lubes. LBT Hard Blue left and Felix right. .44 at 50 yards.

[Whistler]

Lapped my sizing die up to .412".
Changed lube to Carnauba Red.

Next step will be beagling the mold, the bullets are not uniform at .412 but are .411 at one band and .410 at another. Also varies when measured across the seam .412 and 45 degrees rotated .410.

[44man]

That won't hurt. No mold makes round boolits. I get close by cutting with the cherry again after the mold is hot.
The hole shrinks with heat but grows at the parting line. It is different then a hole in a block where the hole gets larger all around. A mold is half a hole at an edge. The hotter your mold, the more out of round you will get.

[Whistler]

Mold beagled .001", then sized with the lapped die.
Definate improvement. Bullets are now snug in the throats.
However, they are still not uniform. I can accept that they are .412 on side and .413 on the other, as long as all three driving bands are the same size at the same side. This bullet has different sized driving bands and for that I believe I will have to beagle just the lower portion of the mold to increase the base band one additional .001". As always, I cast and size way too many bullets in each session, thinking I've found the ultimate solution, then have to smelt them again. And again. And again.

The near cloverleaf below tells me I am on the right track, but that the cylinder throats are not equal in size. Three chambers have a tight grip on the bullet, three have not, as the three fliers behave like when all throats had .411" bullets.

[Three44s]

I am no expert on the DW's but I also own a .41 in 6in. blued and a .22 lr, both "Monson" guns.

What I have learned is that the production at Monson was the best of the bunch so I feel fortunate.

I don't have a lot of time in on these guns and little casting yet so I am not much help yet.

Best regards and a shout out to a Swede from a half Norskie!

Three 44s

[44man]

Have Doug fix the cylinder. He will do you good without breaking the bank. I would send him groove dimensions so he will figure throats.

[Whistler]

If need be I can ream the cylinder throats myself, I've done a couple of dozens.
There's also the complication that I'm in Scandinavia and "Doug" is probably in the US.

I do however believe I will hit the mark when sized right for the largest throat. I'm getting there.

[Whistler]

I have noticed that the front driving band gets sized by the Redding Profile Crimp. This makes the front band not having a snug fit. I am certain this affect accuracy. If I back the die out I loose all crimp when the band is no longer sized. Is it safe to lap the crimp die until the band is no longer sized without hurting the case crimping capabilities of the die?

[44man]

I have noticed that the front driving band gets sized by the Redding Profile Crimp. This makes the front band not having a snug fit. I am certain this affect accuracy. If I back the die out I loose all crimp when the band is no longer sized. Is it safe to lap the crimp die until the band is no longer sized without hurting the case crimping capabilities of the die?

Yes. The boolit must fit through the die. You can lap it out.

[Whistler]

Yes, I know the bullet must fit through die. What I'm wondering is if the die will still be able to crimp after lapping?

[44man]

Yes it will. The crimp shoulder is still there. Think of the die like a throat, boolit needs to fit through.
I seat and crimp in one step with the seat die. Never seen a difference. But even the Hornady seat die for one caliber needed lapped, boolit larger then the hole.