home made lead wire

[luober]

With the ridiculous price of lead wire, I was wondering if anyone out there other than the Corbin bros makes a die set to extrude your own lead wire? Corbin will not make a die to do this unless it is for his hydropress and I just cant plunk down about $7000 right now. I'm talkin about using a fair sized billet to start with (about 1.5" X 8") and making about 10 lbs of wire at a time. I have access to a 60 ton shop press to handle the pressure end of the project but I need someone to be able to make the extrusion dies. I know that I could always cast the cores but when its 97 degrees outside I just cant think about a hot pot. Any help or info on this topic would be greatly appreciated. thanks

[looseprojectile]

Luober;
In my copy of NRA Illustrated RELOADING HANDBOOK, circa 1960, on page 127 is a comprehensive three page article on extruding lead wire for swaged bullets.
He, W.T. Collins says he does it with a screw jack and the whole process, including machining cost him $31.80 in the fifties. I would find someone with this book to fill you in on the process.
Life is good

[Red River Rick]

I have a Corbin hydro press with the wire push die. I have extruding die to make 0.218", 0.250", 0.282", 0.300", 0.312", 0.350" and 0.365" diameter wire. There's some more floating around but I couldn't find them readily.

I swage bullets using both lead wire and cast cores. I have core moulds that I made to fit my Ballisti-Cast Auto Casting machine, various diameters and weights. I can make cores faster casting them then I can extrude wire and chop it. I tend to use these cast cores more than the extruded wire. Both work equally well, but if your not wanting to "Roast", then the wire would be best.

Finding someone to make you a "Proper" extruding die may prove difficult, but not impossible. Costs will be the important factor.

RRR

[georgeld]

I've finally gotten the wire press welded up.
But, with all the other happenings I haven't made the dies yet.

luober: I'm using 1 1/2" all thread about that long, drilling a center hole the dia desired.
Then plan to cut the bottom half, or two thirds at 60+- % somehow to feed it easier. Intend to taper it almost to the edge's then polish the bore's well.

Oil the lead and press with a 12 ton hand pumper. Other than time getting around to it. Won't have much over $80 total including a new jack, tied up in it. Wouldn't be that much if I'd had a mill big enough, or way to thread the ID of the guide tube. So far, it's looking real good. Just need to get the dies made next.

Lot's of more important things going on and my knee's have gone bad again so it's rough standing for long. Still six weeks til the next synvisc injections are due. Hope I can make it.

Do you have access to a lathe? Even a buddy with one would work.

[luober]

gerorgeld,

I do have access to a lathe and I know someone who is pretty good at using it. Email me some pictures or drawings of what you want done and I'll see what I can do about getting the work done. My machinist buddy owes me a couple favors for some 444 marlin ammo that I put together for him. Buy the way I got a quote from Nuclead yesterday for .185 lead wire @ $287 for a 50# spool plus a deposit on the wooden roll and $35 a roll shipping. Just plain crazy. regards, luober

[luober]

fishhawk,
what size billets of lead did you start with (size and length) and what size wire did you try to extrude? toolnon

[looseprojectile]

luober;
This article in the NRA book has drawings of an inverted die setup. You make a die and force it into a cylinder of lead inside a stout tube with a tube pushing the die with the hole in it. He says it doesn't work too well to try to push a slug of lead through a die. Too much drag.
I would be happy to send the article to you after copying it, though my ISP has been mucking up on me for a few days now, running very slow. Just read your PM.
Provide me with your email and I will try.
Lucky to get on the internet today.
Life is good

[cris]

well the first try here has been a 1'' by 3'' slug with a 12 ton press trying to get a wire .187 dia. guess i might down size it a lot and go to 1/2 dia. by 1 inch slug and see what happens

Ever thought about increasing the number of extruding holes on your die in order to decrease the necessary extruding pressure?

[georgeld]

luober:
Thanks for the offer. I'm one of those dumb dude's the would rather do it myself. But, I do ask for lots of advice.

Right now, what I need most is to find a tapered reamer I could afford much like a pipe reamer is made. Don't have one so am guessing. Needs to be a real long taper with a big size as I'm trying to taper the feed in end to make the lead feed easier.

Should be able to cut a 1 1/4" dia at the base and not much over an inch deep. Yeah, I can turn it out with the handfeed of the compound but that will take many hours as I want to make up a set of six dies at first and have two other blanks cut in case I want some other size's.

Was told to get a drill bit and grind it. Ok, $$$$ for big bit's. Am wondering about grinding a HSS bit on the long taper and feed it real slow to make the full cut at once. Anyone ever try that one?

Appreciate the discussion

[Southern Son]

Georgeld, I cannot find it for the life of me, but I was sure that I saw a fella on this forum(somewhere) who had made a wire swaging setup, complete with a rack on the top to hold the drum that he wound the wire onto. Sorry I can't be more helpful, I have been looking for the posting myself just to make sure I have not lost my mind.

[luober]

to looseprojectile,

pm sent

[georgeld]

Southern Son:
I've read it, check about three pages back. It's on there.

Mine may not have the reel as I'll most likely just hand coil them at first.
The setup I've made has a half inch walled 1 1/4" pipe with a barely slip fit shaft to push the slug up with.

Top of the guide tube has been threaded ID to fit the 1 1/2" all thread dies I'm making.

To hold it all, had slots milled to match the OD of this pipe partway the width of 3/4x4" flat bars welded to 2" sq tube legs with a 2" solid sq bottom bar. Which can either be clamped into my oversized vise, or tack welded to the welding table top until done using it, then break the welds off and clean it up with a grinder until next time.

IF not for train wrecks, financials and bad knee's, or other interuptions that come along daily I'd have it further along by now. I've thought there would be less things get in my way after the wife died so I could do MY things. But, sure learned life is NOT that way. At least mine's not yet.

Replaced the computer and bought a new camera both last week. Once I get them figured out I should be able to post pictures, or at least send them by e/mail again. Believe you should be able to figure my project out without pics though.

Thank you sir and don't worry about it. I'll get it done when I can get to it.

PS: See my latest thread above: wire dies made

[deltaenterprizes]

I made a die from a 3'' piece or DOM tubing with a 1'' hole in the center and a piece of 1'' 4140 for the ram.Threaded one end and made a plug with a 1/2'' hole in it and then made orifices for the wire about 1/4'' thick. worked great on a 20 ton press with soft lead slugs 15/16x6''

[Trapshooter]

Another way to make the lead extrude better would be to heat the ingots before loading them in the extruder. If you could get them up around 400F, or so, it would take a lot less force.

Trapshooter

[13Echo]

I remember reading an article in an old Gun Digest about a lead wire extruder made by George Nonte I think. He helped the process along by heating the die with a propane torch while it was extruding. I'll see if I can find the article. I think I still have that issue.

Jerry Liles

[luober]

to deltaenterprizes:

what is 3" dom tubing and where can i get some? is this tubing available in 4" size?

[waydownsouth]

i have just finished a wire swage die i used a piece of 2 inch hex salvaged form a local factory and a 3/4 inch shaft from an old toyota gearbox (some sort of high crome or stainless i think) for the ram

have not tested it yet but i am going to set it up in an old pipe bender frame with a 20 ton truck jack

if i ever make one of these again i will change the design and do things a bit different

next time it will be a two part die body
i will just bore a hole the whole way through and then ream it out to final size it was a pain in the **** boring a blind hole and then having to hone it out to final size
the other advantge is i will be able to change wire sizes just by unscrewing and replacing the end cap

[Southron Sanders]

TALES OF A MISSPENT YOUTH - SWAGING MINIE BALLS!

Extruding lead wire can be DANGEROUS!

Back in the early 1970's I decided I wanted to swage some .575 Pritchett Minie Balls to shoot in a .577 P-53 Enfield muzzleloader. Back in the 1850's & 1860's British Army used a paper patched Pritchett Minie as their standard service bullet for Enfields, and from all accounts. those Pritchett bullets were very accurate, even out to 1,000 yards.

I ordered a Pritchett swaging die from Bahler Die Works and it was designed to fit a RCBS Rock Chucker press. I also had to order .550 diameter pure lead wire that was shipped to me on wooden spools. I did note that the lead wire was coated with what seemed to be a light coat of what appeared to be a heavy motor oil; which I assumed was used as a "lube" for the lead in the extruding process.

Well, anyway a buddy of mine worked for a company that was always doing experimental projects for the government and the aerospace industry as part of his regular job. He had access to a fully equipped machine shop at work and some large hydraulic presses. As he also shot Enfields, he decided he wanted to make up his own lead wire, swaging die and make Pritchetts bullets for himself to shoot in his Enfield.

He made up a swaging cylinder, lead wire extruding die that he had designed to fit in this HUGE hydraulic press they had in the shop at work. One afternoon when things were slow at the shop he installed the swaging cylinder and extruding die in the press, put in an ingot of lead and commenced to slowly increase the pressure in the cylinder until (he thought) lead wire would began to be extruded from the die.

Mysteriously, even though he ran the pressure of the hydraulic press up, up and up-no wire was extruded! So, being somewhat frustrated, he ran the hydraulic pressure HIGHER, HIGHER AND HIGHER!

Suddenly, (according to him) there was this Gawd Awful sound and a stream of lead wire iterally FLEW out of the extruding die thru the air and impacted the metal side of the shop building and kept GOING! It left a hole in the side of the building!

Shutting the hydraulic press down, he ran outside to find a twisted and horribly misshapen "coil" of lead wire lying half way across the parking lot. Fortunately, the lot was almost empty and no cars had been hit by the flying lead "wire."

From my conversation with him, it had never occurred to him to "lube" the lead to be extruded! This might explain why it took so much hydraulic pressure to get the lead to extrude and when it finally did, it literally "flew out" of the press!

I have never extruded lead wire, so I don't really know if a "lube" is required, but I assume so. MY POINT IS-NEVER, NEVER STAND IN FRONT OF THE EXTRUDING DIE WHEN EXTRUDING LEAD WIRE! THAT COULD BE RATHER DANGEROUS,KINDA LIKE LOOKING DOWN THE BARREL OF A RIFLE FROM THE MUZZLE END WHEN YOU HAVE A "HANG FIRE."

I also explored another alternative to purchasing .550 lead wire or casting my cores. Another buddy of mine (in the mid-1970's) worked in the production plant of a newspaper that was scrapping their old linotype equipment at the time and installing the latest type of printing presses. He obtained for me what he called a "Ludlow Casting Machine." This nifty machine melted lead in a lead pot on top and then extruded lead wire or lead bar (depending on the die installed) thru a die under the pot in a slow, continious rate.

I finally gave up on using that Ludlow Machine because it was basically worn out and eventually sold it to another friend who was mechanically inclined. He wanted to fix it to produce cast lead wire for swaging handgun bullets. Now, I regret selling that machine to him.

Basically, that Ludlow Machine worked by forcing melted lead down thru a pipe connected to the bottom of the melting pot. The extruding die was "cooled" by water circulating thru a pipe around the die and when he machine worked, it produced BEAUTIFUL cast lead wire.

So, if you really want beautiful cast lead wire, make up your own "Ludlow Machine" or find one for sale and rebuild it!

In actual fact, I believe that cast lead wire (or cast lead cores) are better for swaging modern lead bullets for use in handguns and breechloading rifles because one of the mechanical properties of lead is that it "work softens." I.E., the more you extrude lead and swage lead, the SOFTER it gets.

Now, for Minie Balls, soft lead is the way to go; but for all other bullets, harder lead is what you want. By extruding lad wire from a press and then swaging it in a bullet die, you are actually working the lead TWICE, and making it "softer." Cast cores is probably the best way to go because by swaging a cast core into a bullet, you are only "work softening" the lead one time.

ANY WAY-GOOD LUCK!

[georgeld]

Once the ingot and ram were started and enough jack to just start pressure enough to make initial contact I poured more than enough 10wt oil in the extrusion hole of the die. So I doubt very much it lacked lube.

Still haven't figured out how to press the ram out, or the bore/barrel tube off the ram. But, I did heat it up and melted the little bit of left over lead out. Took way too long with the plumbers acetylene torch as it all got hot at the same time.

Have the regulator from the oxy/acet torch in being rebuilt now or I'd of used it. Figure with rapid heat on the tube it should expand and the ram "should fall out and then the die "should" unscrew rather easy before they get hot too. Doubt I will, but, could put it all in the deep freeze a few days/week until I get around to it again.

You've made a good point there about getting in front of anything with pressure enough. Good thing he didn't look down into the hole to see what was stopping it up. Splattered brains make one hell of a mess. I saw that twice. Apparently a mechanic dozed off while airing up a tire until the rim blew off taking his head with it. The other time, the leader of a convoy of us truck drivers hauling pipe to a rig in Texas had a car take him head on, he went off the road into the bank of a dry gulley. The pipe drove thru the cab. We helped pull plugs of his body out of the pipe. Very ugly mess. Even worse as he was a good friend and we were behind him.

[Buckshot]

................Some lubes can diesel in the die, too.

Seems odd the difficulty in extruding lead wire. Not doubting anyones experiences or difficulties, but just based on my own meager personal experience.



The above was from one of my very first attempts at swaging, and obviously here I was core forming. For that I was extruding WAY too much lead. If I was trying to extrude lead wire it'd have been way too little However extruding the lead was pretty easy to do. It'd just come squirting out.

I have no need for lead wire so I'm not willing to expend the time, effort and materials in trying to make lead wire but as I said, what I was doing here required no great effort on my part.

Just fiddling around in my head with this. Suppose some of the difficulty is because maybe compressing a lead core is NOT like compressing a like volumn of air? I am not an engineer but I do know that air or any other compressed gas exerts equal pressure against all surfaces of the container it's in, regardless of it's shape. And lets say it's in a cylilnder with a piston pushing up from below.

Now, we take out all the air and replace it with lead that is slightly smaller in OD then the ID of the cylinder. We now begin to apply the same pressure with the piston.The lead slug moves up and stops against the top of the cyllinder. If, at this time, the extrusion hole is in the top, center I'd imagine that a bit of lead would move up into it, to equal the pressure exerted upon it. It seems possible to me that the lead closest to the piston will begin compressing via radial expansion first. Since the pressure is no longer increasing on the top of the lead cylinder, lead moving into the extrusion hole stops, or radically slows.

The base against the piston expands outward to contact the cylinder walls, and as the piston continues upward, so does the radial expansion. That lead closest to the piston is being pressed harder and harder against the cylinder walls. Take a lead cylinder and stand it up on a hard surface, then give it a whack with a hammer. Which end is larger? Could it be that the lube (lack of, wrong type, etc) is displaced upward or into ineffectual pockets?

If this is the case would it also be feasible that the more heavily compressed lead against the piston face achieves a lock of sorts against the cylinder walls? If so it follows that the entire lead slug is not seeing the same effective pressure being exerted by the piston. Once again, not be a pro at this, or being judgemental to others efforts but I've never heard of motor oil, or just 10wt oil being used for something like this. In fact swaging and draw lubes are generally thickish kind of tacky extremely co-hesive stuff. Sometimes called wax-oil and such. Most all case sizing lubes are "Deep Draw' type lubricants and they are for sure NOT thin and runny. Lanolin is also common for some applications.

Does any of this seem plausible?

..............Buckshot