No4 MkI and Lee 185grn 312-PP GC data needed

[ejjuls]

Hey everyone,

Been a long time since I posted and am now back on the forum with a new CB shooter I need some help with. I picked up a well used No4 MkI that has a generous chamber and bbl. I picked up the Lee 185grn .312 mold and the slugs drop at .313 consistently with #2Lyman Equiv metal.
My intial test with this rifle involved a light charge of RE7 and unsized slugs lubed with FWFBL and Lee Liquid alox - shotgun patterns were the result with extreme leading. I slugged and cast the bbl/chamber and found I have a massively generous headspace with a #0 bolt head. Shoulder area moved over 1/4" forward on firing with new brass. I then created a false shoulder on each neck and fire formed the remaining brass with Trail Boss and the same bullet - moderate velocity but accuracy in the 3-4" groups at 75-80 yds off hand and informal shooting. Found no leading after fire forming 50 cases(Win). Chamber cast shows the following - 0.305" lands, 0.317 grooves. Throat is clean with no pitting or discernable errosion. Throat is smooth transition to the lands and groove mmts. I do have a wide spot immediately infront of the case mouth that measures 0.312"

I have decided to paper patch these slugs to give that a try before purchasing a fatter mold. I ran some heavy bond typwriter paper I picked up years ago at a garage sale for paper patching my .54 Minnies and 45/70 slugs. The paper runs a consistent 0.002" thick. One wrap on the bare slugs brought the diameter up to 0.3165" not on the overlap. I could do a double wrap but then I am pushing the limit to chamber - 0.345" and I don't think the extra thickness will be helpful anyways.

I plan on trying these slugs lubed with Lee liquid alox behind a moderate to slow speed powder. Ideally I would like to be able to reach 1900-2000fps with accuracy for hunting. If accuracy falls off I will settle for what ever speed I can achieve. On hand I have PSB and COW as fillers if needed. I want to try non-filler first and then if needed I might experiment with a filler. Right now I have IMR-4350, IMR-4895, RE15, RE7,H335,BL(C)-2, IMR-4198, Trail Boss, Red Dot, Unique, Blue Dot, IMR-3031 and a few others.

Any ideas for starting loads or charges that will render some sort of good starting point for more fine tuning? OR - Is there a powder I do not have on hand that will get me in the neighborhood of 1900fps with reasonable accuracy?

I thought about the following starting loads
23 grns IMR-4198,
30 grns RE15
41 grns IMR-4350
25 grns IMR 3031
28 grns IMR-4895

Bad Idea? Too Low-Too High?
I'm new to the .303 and have been reading much on the tricks of this cartridge/firearm combo - sounds like a challenge and a lot of fun getting these old war horses to shoot good!
I also have to tighten up my wood a bit - I have alittle wiggle on my lower forend I don't like. Where to bed and not to bed? Is it best to bed from the front of the action backward or include a couple of inches of chamber too?

Ok - Let me have it! Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks
Eric

[Piet]

My Enfield No 4 MkII has a bore of .304 and the groove diameter is .316.The bolt head was a #0. The headspace was enormous. I would have needed a #6 bolt head and that does not exist of course. I have corrected the headspace by silver soldering a shim to the bolt head. I have done that in 2000 and it is still OK .
I have tried PP, results were not good. It is possible I guess by calibrating a .308 ullet down to .304 and then paper patch it to .316. One of the many projects I will work on when I get more time!. I have also bought .316 bullets . The results were OK. I used 28 grains of Vihtavuori N140 and 7.2 grains filler from Precision reloading / 177 grain bullet
http://www.precisionreloading.com/2004catalog.htm.
I have also used 23 grains of Vihtavuori N110 / 180 grain bullet, Quickload predicts a speed of about 1900 fps for this load. H4198 28 grains/ 180 grains is another reduced load . Another powder I tried is Accurate 5744.
I try get about 2 moa , I am not there yet!

[longbow]

I have done some paper patching for a No. 5 with pretty good results.

I have a 0.303" bore and about 0.314" groove so a little tighter than yours. I made a simple push out mould based on the Lyman recommendation for 0.301" for .30 cal. for my .308 Win.

I decided to patch some of these with slightly thicker paper for my .303 but results weren't terribly good even after several attempts with different thicknesses of paper. In the end I knurled 0.301" bullets to swell them to 0.304" then paper patched to groove diameter. That worked!

What caught my attention though was that as soon as the bullet was knurled I got good accuracy. I do not know if the knurling helped (better grip on paper?) or the larger diameter or both.

What I have been told by others more knowledgeable is that for smokeless loads the bullet should be sized to about bore diameter then patched to groove diameter. That certainly worked for my .303.

I think your 0.313" bullet will be oversized and one wrap of paper may be difficult to do. However, there is a muzzleloader site where the fellow was using 1 wrap of paper patching for slugs successfully (and also for a .458 Win mag.) so it is certainly possible. Here is the link:

http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

This might help too (go to "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle" by David Southall):

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

You would likely have an easier time using a standard 0.308" diameter or smaller bullet and patching to your groove diameter with 2 wraps of paper. It certainly won't hurt to try what you are suggesting though.

The powders I have used successfully with bullets from 180 to 215 gr. so far are: Unique (13 grs. max.) , IMR 4227 (22 grs. max), IMR 4198 (24 grs. max) and not so successfully IMR 4064. 4895 should also be a good powder, I intend to try it.

I have used COW filler with good success with both Unique and 4198 under plain cast bullets but if you get good results with paper patched without filler that is easier. Make sure you work up loads carefully if you add filler as pressures will increase.

Longbow

[ejjuls]

I agree - the diam must be right!

I have PP'd the 45/70 with excellent results as well as my Italian 54 flinter.
If These 0.312 slugs wont work I am going to try some 0.309 slugs I have (170 grn+/-) and size them to 0.308 then maybe smaller to 0.305 with a home made size die.

This is my first test, obviously!
I love IMR-4198 in my 7.62x54R and 0.308 and 30-06 and 8mm Mauser for CB loads that comfortably run in the 1900-2000 fps range. I am hoping the same is true with the 303 Brit but one never knows. I am suspecting I will find that these 0.312 slugs will end up obdurating sooo severely that decent accuracy won't be the case. I can only imagine that alot of metal will be displaced into the grooves and elongating of the bullet due to the bore diam. This isn't going to be a plus for accuracy but we will find out! Thanks for the thoughts and links.
I'll post my results this weekend from my test loads with a few pics if anyone is interested.
If it's too easy there is no fun in it!

Eric

[smokemjoe]

CBE makes some nice bigger size molds for the 303 barrels, Joe.

[beemer]

There are several threads on the paper patching the 303 in the paper patching section that you should read. I use the Lee 312 mould for the 303 and Mosin-Nagant with good results. I size the boolit to .308 and use 2 wraps of Mead Tracing Paper(.0015 thick) from Wal-Mart to bring it back to .314. Reloader 15 at 37 grs gave about 2250 fps in my MK2 with good accuracy. I use LLA to lube and a 1 half grain of dacron fiber to hold the charge in place.
I know that your bore is larger than mine but the proper size boolit and paper combination should work.

beemer

[Freightman]

try the 8mm lee kbr boolit sized down to.317 or so you will have to size the nose down to .308 as it is .318+ and will not work in the bore. i size to.323 to lube and put on gc's then in an oversized lee push trrough size it to .316+. you need the lube to keep from crushing the groves.

[ejjuls]

Thanks everyone for the help!

Last night I went a head and finished up 5 rnds to see how they look at if they would chamber "ok". Unfortunately, I miss calculated on the throat dimensions and ended up tearing the paper off of my test dummy round. I had to seat my slugs deeper with the paper on than without the paper - a little trial and error and I had the depth set as far out as possible - lightly touching the lands. The other thing I noticed yesterday while testing the dummy rounds is some of my brass seemed "tipped". I went ahead and grabbed some Dykem ad coated the lugs out of curiousity - visually both appeared to be wear seated and lightly polished. The Dykem revealed only the left lug was engaging with about 5-10% touching the seat. 30 minuted of lapping later and now both are equally engaging at about 75-80% I figured that was far enough for now - can always do a little more if needed.

I loaded 5 rnds with IMR_4198 with 21 grains of a charge. With the loaded round I have 0.001-0.002" of clearance on the neck. I am glad I didn't try 2 wraps! The paper I used is pretty heavy stuff - It's a bond paper, onion skin type designed for typwriters - "Eaton's Berkshire Bond". Appears to be quite old stuff that I found at a Garage Sale - works wonderfully on the larger slugs but is hard to work with on the .30 cal slugs. I may try a thinner paper as suggested by "beemer".

I am going to load up 25 more this morning - I am going to try the following loads:
21 grains IMR-4198 - 5 more rnds
25 grains IMR-3031 - 10 rnds
30 grains RE15 - 10 rnds

I want to try an aggregate 8 round group with each powder and see what happens.
The first two fouling shots from each charge will be fired remotely for safety sake.

If this doesn't seem to limit fouling and tighten groups a bit I will switch slugs - I have some lee 0.309" 170 grain RNFP, GC slugs on hand. I'll grab some thinner paper and try those with the same charges.

If I can't get a 0.30 cal to work I will custom order a mold or perhaps try some J-word projectiles?

This afternoon I will post some pics of the targets for posterity sake. This is my first .303 experience so this is all new to me with the various oversized bore issues these rifles have. I have had excellent luck dealing with the Mosin - pretty straightforward just run a bigger slug. Matching the 303's - 0.305 bore to a 0.317 groove is a little harder!

I actually thought about rebarreling if I can't get this thing to shoot half-way decently. That would eliminate a lot of work and paper-patching! Maybe do the .303 pygmy or other wildcat based upon the 0.303?
Keep the thoughts coming!
<ewj>

[ejjuls]

Frieghtman,

How do you suggest to size only the nose? Partial push through die - bullet upside down in a Lyman die?

If my tests don't work I might consider trying a few slugs from you???? Hint hint hint....
Before purchasing the mold. Are you willing?

What kind of load have you had work with these slugs?
<ewj>

[ejjuls]

Smokemjoe,

Any experience with their molds?

I like the looks of the 0.316-238GC RN for the style as well as the size (0.317 grooves for me).
Only issue I have is my neck - I may have to re-cut my neck to make room for some of these larger slugs if the paper patching doesn't pan-out.

<ewj>

[ejjuls]

Hey everyone,

My first test consisted of the Lee .312" 185 grain GC slug paper patched with 0.002" bond typewriter paper - Eaton's Berkshire Bond. Bullets cast from #2 Lyman Equiv and unsized with gas check. Before PP the slugs came out as 0.312 with the alloy I used. I used a single wrap and then lubed the bare bullet with paper with Lee Liquid Alox. After PP - we had a pretty consistent 0.3165" not on the seam. My BBL measures 0.305" bore with a 0.3165-0.317" groove. I used Win once fired cases and CCI large rifle primers. I ended up having to seat these bullets deeper in the case than I had done before when testing them without the pp. OAL was 2.765" with no crimp. Cases were neck sized only with a Lee neck size die and flared with a Lyman M-die. I left only enough tail to hold the PP together and to cover the base of the gascheck.

Rounds were tested off of shooting sticks at a distance of 50 paced yds. The temp was about 102deg F. (I wasn't being very careful with the shots as my knee was on fire with contact with the gravel. My Right eye viewed the front bead as blurry so a scope will be the only way to ascertain the true accuracy of the loads.) Basically a quick down and dirty test.

IMR-4198 @ 21 grains resulted in the best group tested - approx 3" 8 rnd group with called flyer
RE15 @ 37 grains - two rounds touching (others wouldn't chamber)
IMR-3031 @ 30 grains - stringing group all in line but vertically in excess of 8 inches (held good on each shot).

After each powder I cleaned the bbl - after the RE15 I noticed significant leading at the muzzle - Due to this I cannot say that the two rounds touching were producing the best accuracy with this powder and charge. Perhaps a reduced charge might prove better? Who knows.?

I have contact CBE to get a price on a mold that will cast 0.316" to get a bullet better suited to my bbl. With the paper patching I am pushing the limits of my chamber. My max is 0.345" The RE15 test - two out of eight would chamber. The only difference with the RE15 cases versus the others was the use of "roll out" of the flare from the M-die by using the standard 0.303 FL sizer die.) The RE15 cases weren't run through the die partially where the others were - the RE15 cases appeared to be smooth with no remaining flare - didn't think I needed to run them through the die - shame on me. Should have checked them all before leaving the house

At any rate - I have a bullet which is too small on the overall diam to match my groves and slightly over sized on the body to fit my bore. I am going to try a few Lee 0.309 170 grain RNFP GC slugs that are PP before I sink money into a new mold.

If that doesn't work I believe I am going to have to re-ream my neck to make room for a 0.317" slug no mater what to best fit my barrel - OR - re-barrel to a more "normal" bore-groove dimension - OR - re-barrel to a wildcat with nominal dimensions (0.338/303 or 7mm/.303 or 30-40 Krag or .303 Pygmy, etc) I am hesitant to do a true 0.308 bore .303 Brit for fear someone down the road might try and stick a factory or surplus .303 Brit. cart. in the gun. If it comes down to a re-barrel job I would rather go with a non-standard chambering where a .303 British won't fit in the chamber - this makes the 30-40Krag questionable at best.

Right now I am looking at a scope mount before much more testing. My eyes aren't what they should be due to cataract surgery on my right eye otherwise the milspec peep would be fine for my purposes. I just have a sinking feeling that at a minimum I need to enlarge my neck area of the chamber to make room for the oversized slugs to fit my groove diameter. Less than 0.002" clearance makes me nervous for a gun like this.

In the mean time I will try the IMR-4198 test again and play with the charges a bit - higher and lower to see if things improve.

<ewj>

[longbow]

smokemjoe's suggestion of CBE moulds is a good one. They make some oversize moulds for .303.

I have no personal experience with their moulds but have read very good things.

Try getting hold of jeffinNZ. He has several of their moulds and has given very positive reports.

[beemer]

S & K makes a no gunsmithing mount if you prefer to leave the rifle original. It fits between the rear sight ears and clamps to the charging bar and is made of steel. Weaver makes a drill and tap mount that I have on a No4 Mk1*.

Don't give up yet, sometimes it takes a little tinkering. I have not been at paper patching very long but enjoy playing around with different combos. The .309 boolit with 2 wraps of .002 sounds good. You might want to try a slightly softer lead with the paper patch. I use a lot of IMR 4198 for lead at about 20-21 gr. but it will build psi fast when it reaches it's limit. PP can be shot faster than lead so I tend to use a little slower powder.

In your first post you mentioned the action bedding. The Enfield is a little different than most rifles, the seperate forestock being the fly in the ointment. Everything you thought you knew about bedding is out the window.The NRA publishes a small book titled British Enfield Rifles. There are several articles on bedding and stock work plus a lot of history and general info. It has helped me a lot on making these old rifles shoot, well worth the money.

Enfields are fasinating rifles, they evolved out of the nastiest fighting conditions you could imagine. Some of the features are odd but after finding out the reasoning behind them it makes sense.

beemer

[ejjuls]

BTW - Who makes a good reamer to enlarge the neck of this chamber?

Is there a universal reamer out there for .30cal bbls - or due to the dimensions am I going to have to have one custom made or make one myself?

Anybody have any experience enlarging the neck on a .303 Brit? I am picturing a modified chamber reamer or a custom made reamer with dimensions of about 0.350"? which would open the neck up for the increased size of the loaded rounds with fatter bullets by about 0.005" diam overall from what I have now. Max diam of a loaded round at the neck I can chamber now is 0.344-0.345" which gives ZERO clearance. I would like to have the rounds chamber smoothly with some clearance (reasonable) so if there is variations in brass, etc. I don't have a problem chambering a round when hunting, etc.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
<ewj>

[ejjuls]

Wouldn't a chucking reamer - spiral flute of the appropriate size work?
Assuming your set-up on the lathe was sound and true of course.

I can see where a small mistake in setup with a chucking reamer would be disastrous with the chamber reamaining true and straight. Just athought that came to me after posting the last reply.....Hmmmm.
<ewj>

[ejjuls]

After talking with a CB shooter today who shoots competively - not associate with this forum - he thought that enlarging the Lee aluminum block mold might be the ticket if I trim the necks a bit to ensure I have room for the fatter slug.

So I will cast some slugs from my "enlarged mold" this weeks and see if the loaded rounds can use some neck thinning and see where that goes. Who knows it might work!
Eric

[dromia]

By enlarging do you mean Beagling?

[Freightman]

Put the boolit up side down in a .308 sizer Lyman and go only to the first band, I have put GC on first and used a nose punch that would crimp them on (they are tight) then size in a .325 sizer to lube, I use 50/50 BW/LLA then run them through a Lee .314 sizer not a good picture sorry, but it is a cylinder with lube and barlry a nose, .308 down to top band, .3155 down including GC

[ejjuls]

Nope I thought about beagling the mold but decided to go this other route -
Take a cast slug - from softer alloy (#2) file off the nose to the driving band.
Drill thru the slug length wise and thread for a allen headed screw 8x32 I believe I did.
Lightly coat the slug with lapping compound and close in the mold - use a t-handle allen wrench to turn the slug - add more compound and repeat. Clean, cast and measure. Repeat if needed to reach 0.317 cast diameter with a 0.303-0.304 nose.

I haven't started turning the slug yet - been too busy.
I imagine I will do that this weekend for sure.

I am only going to do one cavity of the mold - I use this mold for my Mosin Nagant too and don't want to have to buy another mold at this point. If it works great - I may do both cavities and then buy another mold.

If I wreck the mold I am only wrecking one cavity at this point.

I am not too keen on neck thinning just for a shooter/hunting CB gun; however, this will tell me if it is worth enlarging the neck area of the chamber so I don't have to mess with factory brass in the future.

Eric

Freightman,

I have a pile of 190 grain Saeco 8mm bullets on hand. If this doesn't work too well I will try your suggestion with the 8mm bullets and see what happens. Right now I am STILL scrubbing mountains of lead from my barrel after firing 30 rounds!!!
I am starting to see steel so I might be getting close to finishing - who knows!?
Eric

[Kraschenbirn]

Eric...

I've already done exactly what you're planning to a Lee 185-gr mould and it sounds like you've got the right idea. My only advice is to go s-l-o-w-l-y, measure often, and, so far as possible, keep your lapping compound confined to the driving band cavities to minimize shallowing of the grease grooves or increase of the nose diameter. I've enlarged both cavities of my mould to drop .316/.317 from my pet alloy (3 parts Lyman #2 to 1 part Lino) .

Sized to .315, lubed with Jake's Purple Ceresin and pushed to just over 2000 fps, I get consistent 2"-2 1/4" 100-yd groups from my factory-sighted #4Mk1

Bill