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Thread: Shooting Handguns and Shotguns at Front Sight this weekend

  1. #1
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    Shooting Handguns and Shotguns at Front Sight this weekend

    Going for my biannual Front Sight trip this next weekend.

    I will be shooting in a 2 day Handgun Course on Friday and Saturday with my G23 which I have not gotten to shoot much yet. I have dry fired it a bunch and just put a set of Tru-Glo Tritium/Fiberoptic Night Sights on it. They are very bright in either Day Light or at Night.

    On Sunday I will be attending an introduction to Precision Rifle Class (all indoors) where they teach you everything you are supposed to know to shoot your Precision Rifle out to many yards. Looking forward to seeing just how deep they get into that subject, probably lots to learn using an I Phone based Ballistic Calculator and Mildot Master.

    Then on Monday it will be into a 2 day Tactical Shotgun Course. I have never took that course and it will be fun to learn some Advanced Scattergun Handling which will benefit my 3 gun shooting a lot. I can run a shotgun, but my overall gun handling sucks. Learning the proper techniques and getting drilled on them will help immensely.

    I only wish they would have had all this stuff available 30-40 years ago when I was younger.

    So, off I go,,, and I will report back on my progress when I get home next week.

    Hope to see some of you there?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  2. #2
    Boolit Master tigweldit's Avatar
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    Randy, Sounds like a lot of learning and a lot of fun.Hope you have a great time. Looking forward for update when you get back.

  3. #3
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    Well,,, I'm back !!!

    the handgun class was OK and I got to shoot my new G23 a lot. I can hit with it nearly as well as I shoot the G21 but it is a smaller gun so it runs a bit different. Still a Glock and everything is the same as other Glocks, just a slightly different feel.

    The Precision Rifle Class was all indoors and all about all the idiosyncrasies of Precision Rifles and long distance shooting. The Mechanical Factors which govern most of any shot are Velocity and Ballistic Coefficient of the Bullet. These two factors define the trajectory which gets the shot to the target's range. At greater ranges your Ranging has to be at least good to +/- 10 yards!

    The other factors like Spin Drift, and Coriolis Effect only apply to shots beyond 800 yards, but the big one is Wind! And whereas there are lots of ways to read it, it is still a Mysterious Factor which requires some Intestinal Fortitude, and possibly Divine Guidance.

    Shotguns were a different story . First if considering a Tactical Shotgun don't go nuts, just buy a Mossberg 500 or 590. The Mossberg Pump guns are by far the easiest to run and shoot.

    Guys on both sides of me had Rem 870's and had nothing but problems running them as they have some seemingly small idiosyncrasies that rear their ugly heads when clearing malfunctions and make life very difficult. They have relatively small Ejection Ports which make Port Loading tougher and the lifter has a big wall on it that makes ejecting spent hulls harder than it needs to be. Overcoming these problems slows you down a bunch. Mossberg's don't have these problems

    Semi Autos are fine for competition but cause bigger problems when clearing Malfunctions. Don't for one second think that shotguns don't malfunction. They do, and they are subject to the same types of malfunctions as any other firearm type. Semi-Autos are simply harder to run, and unless you are willing to put in the time and effort to learn how to run one effectively, you are better off with a simple pump gun. (Mossberg 500/590)

    I could consistently get 2 aimed shots off in 2-3 seconds from the low ready. I was also able to get 3 slugs into the head of my target at 50 yards in less than 10 seconds! Offhand! See pic.

    I did get a little beat up shooting my gun but the biggest problem was getting my cheek pinched between the comb of the stock and my Hearing Muffs. Got a nice bruise to show for that. Shoulder was fine but I already ordered an adapter from Magpul to install a conventional Recoil Pad. The gun weighs 7 lbs 12 oz and really needs to be a pound heavier, but the just isn't any place to put the lead.

    I also ordered a Velcro Side Saddle Shell Carrier. These are held on the left side of the receiver with a piece of Adhesive Velcro and all you have to do to do a Tactical Reload is rip off the one on the gun and slap a loaded one on. It also doesn't get in the way when port loading. www.browncoattactical.com.

    Needless to say the trip was vary informative and I learned a lot of new things that I can practice at home and go back ready to get vicious on my next trip.

    I would also urge those who would consider "Home Invasion" at my place to reconsider, as now instead of getting shot several times with a .45,,, they would be facing a 12 ga.

    The chances of surviving a load of buckshot or a slug at >15 yards are not too high.

    Randy

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    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  4. #4
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    Just a suggestion about the shotgun. If you want it heavier, put the weight in the butt stock. This helps with the recoil and improves the pointability of the weapon. It will feel a little strange at first but you will quickly get used to it and appreciate the difference in how it handles. Since the weight is in the butt, which doesn't move much, it actually seems to speed up the barrel end.
    If a wood stock, you can use the mounting bolt hole or simply drill another hole and fill it with shot or steel. If a polymer stock, usually there is some empty space inside the stock that can be filled with shot or aquarium gravel.
    I used the aquarium gravel trick on a couple of polymer stocked rifles I own and it worked a treat.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Leave a little open space in that plastic stock and you can shake it a bit ......... the attacker will think there is a mad rattler about to strike!

    Sorry, could resist.

    I am surprised about the revelations about the 870 though. I will have to have a heart to heart with one of my BIL’s as he was a prison guard supervisor and an armored at a state prison in our state. He’s all over 870’s, AR’s and HK USP’s like a cheap suit and in a good way.

    Three44s

  6. #6
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    My M500 has Magpul furniture on it, The Buttstock is nearly solid. First thing I thought was dumping some shot into it, but it just doesn't have that much room. called Magpul to verify and they confirmed that the stock is nearly solid.

    They did have a Recoil Pad Adapter that replaces the current one and adapts Full Size Remington Gel Type pads, so I ordered both pieces from Midway for $25 and will mount them when they arrive. That should spread out the impulse quite a bit.

    Here's a pic of the gun as it sits now. I also have one of my 1.5" side mounted slings on the gun, and it carries cross body very well.

    I realize this is the Handgun Section so I'll probably just add a Holster to the side of the shotgun so I can talk about it here.

    Randy
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    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-11-2017 at 04:33 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  7. #7
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    Snort, good thing I wasn't drinking coffee.
    But you mention a holster. Someplace I have a picture of my brother when he lived in Alaska where he is standing in a stream fishing with his Mossberg in a sheath slung diagonally across his back, for "just-in-cas-ies." He averred that he could unlimber the shotgun just about as fast as he could unsnap and draw his SBH, and the 70 caliber barrel seemed more promising than the .429 one!
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  8. #8
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    I love Front Sight. I try to go at least once a year. I've only gone there for Defensive Pistol and Practical Rifle. You'll gain a lot more from a 4-day course than from a 2-day course.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this WR, for hand guns, was it mostly Glocks out there? Did you see any students with revolvers or XD's and M&P's.

    Mossberg 500 huh, does the safety high on the receiver get in the way? I always thought it would be hard to get to if one had a pistol grip but stock.
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  10. #10
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    pmer: It was a newbie class and the only one available during the time I had available. I have been to 13 pistol classes over the years and the ones you really get something out of are the 2 Day Skill Builders when ran by a good Range Master. The class I went to earlier this year was a 4 day and I DG'd that class, but mashed on the Hostage during the Man on Man and lost out.

    There were no Revolvers in that class, and yes mostly Glocks. Glocks are the proper first Pistol as they are the simplest to learn.

    AS far as the M500 safety I installed an aftermarket steel one that has really high bump on it and it doesn't get in the way. I have Magpul Furniture on the gun but several had Pistol Grip Stocks and they did have problems with the safety.

    My biggest problem with the safety was remembering to push it forward during Presentation. I don't like tang type safeties and this gun is the only one I own with one, so there will be a learning curve until it becomes second nature.

    My biggest problem with this gun is the weight. it is 7 lb 12 oz and even with birdshot it beats the cramp out of me. There is not room in the Magpul Buttstock for any shot so I am going to look at the original stock to see if it is hollow. It might be gong back on filled with shot. This gun needs to be at 9 lbs + to be pleasant to shoot as much as you need to in the classes, and with more weight further back it would be easier to present as well as the gun is pretty muzzle heavy and more so when fully loaded. It's not like shooting Trap or Skeet where you fire one or two rounds every few minutes. In these classes you fire a whole box in ten minutes! and do it multiple times.

    At the end of the class to make sure we used all our ammo they had us shooting multiple targets, 2 3 and 4 at a time. I shot 35 rounds during that exercise and even though I was only wearing a Tee Shirt I didn't get bruised on my shoulder. I did get smacked on the cheek bone three really good times in a row and did come home with that bruise. This was all done shooting "Estate" brand birdshot which were the slowest ones I could find at 1145 fps. The Winchester stuff I got at Walmart was running 1300 fps, and I couldn't tell the difference in recoil between the two brands.

    An Auxiliary Shoulder pad would cause more problems with getting the gun shouldered right everytime and wouldn't really help here as it was not the sharpness of the recoil that was bothering me it was the sheer volume. My Marlin .45-70 kicks less than this gun, but I guess in a gun fight I probably wouldn't notice it!

    Randy
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    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-19-2017 at 03:38 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  11. #11
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    I have to tell you guys watching this thread. Gun setup is a big deal and it doesn't matter which kind of gun we are talking about. Rifle Pistol Shotgun they all need to be setup to the best configuration for you personally. This is usually a trial and error process, and I have the large box of extra parts to prove it.

    I have all 4 of my Glocks set up the same way with Extended Mag Releases and Slide Catches. All have aftermarket sights and one has a red dot. I have fondled all 4 of these guns extensively and have knocked off every single burr or rough spot on them so that when I go to a class and shoot 400-800 rounds in a 2-4 days the guns don't wear my hands out. Instead they feel good in my hand and so I can concentrate on shooting and not be bothered with a grip that wears a hole in me. This way I can concentrate on the sight alignment and trigger control instead of pain! This was the first rip with the G23 and it worked perfectly right from the get go. It did malfunction a few times but this was due to lack of Break In, It is broke in now!

    I used my G35 gun belt for this class and the G23 fits that holster perfectly so no alterations needed, but the point is having a dedicated gun belt with a holster and mag holders and maybe a dump bag all set up and sussed out before you go will enhance your experience. You will probably want to make changes when you get back but it is a good idea to dry fire and practice with the rig before going back to make sure you got it right.

    Shotguns and Rifles are more of the same. Proper sling choice and setup is critical in a 4 day class as the gun will be hanging off you doing nothing about 2 full days time in total. This gets old really quick if the sling doesn't support the weight of the gun right and hang it properly. I do Cross Body Carry on all my Tactical Long Guns and the gun has got to hang flat during the test so it isn't torqueing away from you constantly. This gets old fast as well. If the sling isn't working right it will tire you out fast and your concentration goes right down the drain as a result.

    When you go to a class like at Front Sight where you are shooting a lot, the setup of your gun will show itself pretty quick and unfortunately you won't be able to really tell until you are shooting that much. I had a pretty good idea what I wanted for this Shotgun Class with my experience with other long guns, but two days of getting beat hard altered that idea significantly.

    My point here is that you need to play with whatever gun you are planning to take and dry fire the ehell out of it before you go and try to get it as close as possible to what you think you want. Then when you get back make the necessary changes to the setup so that when you go the next time you are setup a little better than last time and then repeat until you get it right. Fine tuning your equipment.

    This would be the same process if you were shooting competitions, which is the only other place you will get to shoot enough to find the shortcomings of your firearm and rig,,, and yourself.

    This should be no brainer for people who carry a gun everyday. Having a rig or a gun that doesn't act right could get you killed, and I certainly think that you would agree that taking time to sort out your kit and practicing with it frequently would be a prudent thing to do. My personal opinion is if you EDC you should be dry firing your carry gun at least once or twice a week, every week!

    YMMV,,, but really,,,, it shouldn't!

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

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