#1 gun was a S&W Shield Performance Center 9mm with a bad barrel. Sent it back and they replaced it with an almost as bad barrel. I sold it for $25 less than I paid for it and swore off S&W for a while.Originally Posted by Mr_Sheesh
This is the original barrel, FWIW:
Attachment 207043
Attachment 207044
My take, without really knowing what’s going on.
I’ll take a .22 that shoots accurately and reliably over a .44 magnum that doesn’t any day! If you aren’t comfortable in the accuracy and reliability of the gun you are carrying then you are better off not carrying anything. One of the reasons I’ve gone back to my LCR! I can hit a beer can at 7yds with some practice, I know it’s going to go “bang” each of the five times I pull the trigger and it instills confidence in me, the shooter!
I can’t say how many .22 semiiauto pistols I’ve owned, I like the size, but when I couldn’t dispatch a cat with my Berretta 21, which shot and fed reliably, I lost all faith in the gun and round.
If I don’t have faith in the gun and the round I’m shooting I may as well be throwing insults at the asailents, I have more confidence in them than the bullets!
So whatever is going on here, if you don’t trust what you are shooting, get rid of it and get something you do trust, PERIOD! If you don’t have faith in it, it WILL FAIL! I can’t make it anymore clearer than that.
I would get a Glock if I wanted a Semi or a Smith M69 2.75 inch if a revolver. That would be my solution.
I'll just say that Hannibal and I both have the same questions about why the topic was posted.
Because I have come across a number of people like the gentleman that purchased my Shield who don't think a handgun used for self-defense needs to be accurate. I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss and see what the various views were.
Sorry it seems to have offended you and Hannibal.
I take the .45 ACP over the 9mm because....... whoops, wrong thread! This always gets an argument!
Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting
I don't buy a pocket gun to shoot groups at 25 yards. If I thought I would be in a situation that required accurate 25 yard shooting id leave the pocket gun at home. 99 percent of ccw shootings happen at less then 10 yards probably 10 feet. Your not Rambo or a police officer. If someone is 25 yards away your probably in a position to get out of dodge. Most untrained ccw holders would probably be more of a danger to the public under the stress of a gun fight shooting at 25 yards with a full blown comp grade 1911 then they would be to the guy there trying to shoot. Then you have to consider that fact that your pocket gun is probably a 38 or 380 or something similar and chances are your going to need to place more then one shot at 25 yards to stop them and even then its probably going to take a perfect central nervous system hit to stop them. Like some others said if it were my choice id put a couple hundred rounds through both and pick which if either is RELIABLE.
What gun was used for the second target?
Also what are the pictures illustrating? I see some barrel wear on the outside of the barrel around the compensator ports but other than cosmetic I do not see anything that should result in such poor accuracy.
Not sure about S&W Shields, but I believe their lock up is similar to Glocks. Both my Glock 19 and 26 have developed bluing wear in similar areas from use.
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"I don't want men who miss." -Capt. Leander H. McNelly
Might be helpful to see what actual CCW shootings were in terms of distance. I know of no such database, and the FBI stats may not be useful. Thus it is hard to make a case that super accuracy is necessary. Desirable, sure. Necessary is hard to prove given lack of info.
I highly suspect that ranges are close. I also suspect there is less reason and opportunity to engage in long range and protracted shootouts compared to law enforcement who often must engage a perp in a more "offensive" manner.
Answer t the original question, the better accuracy. In regard to FBI data I'm not sure it applies to the average citizen. What I'm thinking is as the distance between players increases so does the need for an exceptional lawyer. A LEO is perceived differently than a citizen. As the distance increases so do the opportunities to avoid the confrontation. I'm gonna do my best not to shoot anyone. I do fear the justice system, jury of my "peers" & aggressive prosecutor.
JMHO
20 yards from the counter? Must be a big Arby's.
The choice has to go to the more accurate pistol, given equal reliability with the chosen ammunition.
I'm not sure that I've ever heard of the 21 ft. rule, but do believe that the vast majority of shootings occur within that distance. One must always consider the Monday morning quarterbacking that follows any shooting. What was the other party armed with? If a knife, 21 ft. might apply as some people are very adept at a hop, skip, jump and lunge before you can draw from concealment. But 25 yards makes that person much less of a threat.
If the other party is armed with a handgun, again at 25 yards, how many bad guy types are adept at hitting what suddenly becomes a moving, ducking, dodging, headed for concealment, running away target? There are some, perhaps many, jurisdictions where shooting someone at 25 yards distance will be scrutinized very critically, especially if the other party hasn't fired first. Of course, if the other party has a long gun the picture changes somewhat, and your odds of success go down dramatically. I believe that, in general, the longer the distance the less the threat, not considering artillery and bombs.
But, returning for a moment to the 21 ft. and inside distance, certainly most police officers who are shot on traffic stops are inside this distance. And it follows that if confronted by bad guy(s) in a parking lot or dark street who demand your wallet they will also be close enough to be threatening, perhaps just beyond arm's reach. So, I wouldn't poo-poo the idea that the vast majority of armed encounters are likely to be up close and personal.
Fast is Fine, Accuracy is Final!
a quote for an unknown gunslinger from way in the past but still makes sense today.
I will always take the more accurate gun, provided all else is the same. Long believed in the rule of at least 200 rounds down range with no malfunction before carrying any weapon concealed! the OP's Shield did not fit the bill and I was not surprised that S&W couldn't fix it.
I will also pass on my personal thoughts on Mag capacity: Magazine capacity is NOT a substitute for Marksmanship!
Practice makes perfect 20 to 25 yards is not impractical and, in my opinion, will make hitting targets at closer range easier.
Big boys say you lose 80% of your skill level when the trouble starts, anything that hinders that, such as the OP's Shield, will only make that factor get worse.
Just my thought on the subject.
HM
It's been in this order for me for 30+ years.
1st: reliability
2nd: point ability/control ability
3rd: accuracy
If a firearm isn't reliable it's no good
If you choice in firearms doesn't point naturally for you, you will struggle to get/keep on target.
If you can't control the firearm you just brought a single shot to a gunfight.
Either target is more than accurate enough for sd/ccw.
I responded to the OP via PM with some stats covering shootings and homicides I had involvement with or knowledge of. Roughly 5% of the incidents occurred outside a 15 yard engagement distance. 1 in 20. FWIW.
There was a time--and not that long ago--when a service autopistol was either very accurate or very reliable, but seldom both. That is no longer the state of the art & science. Unfortunately, S&W is not yet on board with that concept. I am sure their decaying market share will demonstrate the folly of their current mindset. If you rest on your laurels for long enough, they will dry out. Someone will come along and ignite them under you, and your business will burn down. S&W did it to Colt, and now others (principally Glock) are doing it to S&W.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Well shucks now I have to go shoot my wife's 9mm Shield on the bench at 25 yds. I've not considered it till now. If that pans out I'll try 100 yds!
If I owned one I would have already tried 100 yards.
all things being equal I'd go with the more accurate gun. I don't ask for target pistol accuracy from my belly guns, but they sure are on my hip/belt a lot more frequently than their full sized brothers. If that was my target from the range I'd be a bit disappointed with the first pistol as well. Then again, I've taken people to the range that couldn't group that well at 7 yards....so I guess it is all perspective. I'd rather shoot a bit slower and hit my intended target than spray and pray.
My feedback page if you feel inclined to add:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...raight-Shooter
Thanks Yall!
Let me throw another wrench into the argument....I was carrying a Sig P220 when my department mandated we go to Glocks....I do not shoot the Glock as well....qualification scores dropped for me across the board almost 15% and that is in spite of the fact that we received transition training of over 600 rds.
Fact, I shoot a Sig 220 or a 1911 better than a Glock....that difference has nothing to do with the inherent accuracy of the Glock, but with the accuracy of the entire delivery system.
I carry a S&W Shield 40. With it and 180gr. Winchester ammo I will keep all shots on a playing card at 15 yds. I have never bench fired it but did pot a grouse at a little over 30 yds. My point is that my Shield in my hand has been reliable, trouble free, and reasonably accurate. The shot on the grouse might have been lucky, but I suggest if it was some miscreant who was trying to do me harm he would have been in very big trouble.
Accuracy counts....if all else is equal....but individual ergonomics count as well in how accurate the entire weapon system is. The mechanical accuracy of the weapon is only one part of the equation.
Seriously? You're standing in a mall with your wife and kids and you see a man 25yds away start pointing a gun at them and you don't think that's enough of a threat to pull your weapon and defend them?? That it's too far away? That you would all start running away hoping the bad guy can't hit any of you?
Because you just said that 25 yards is so far that a jury will really be scrutinizing your actions and that most bad guys won't be able to hit you if you are running and dodging...
Incredible thought processes on display here...
Please share with everyone how you are able to determine just what kind of self-defense situation you know you're going to or not going to be in that day. Must be some amazing psychic powers you have there...
And that illustrates my point. My XDS is the absolutely smallest pistol I have ever carried for self-defense. Prior to it I carried a S&W M&P40C that held 10rnds of pretty potent rounds. But I rarely carried it when in public because it was a bit chunky. I carry my XDS nearly everywhere due to it being so handy.
Your CCW is a compromise. You decide just how unprepared you are willing to be in the event of an attack.
For me, a .40 S&W with 6 165gr Hornady Critical Duty rounds that will group 2" at 25yds is my minimum. For others, a 5-shot revolver that they aren't comfortable shooting past 7yds is their minimum. It's all about choices. The odds are that the consequences of our choices will never be known, thank God.
Speaking to the terrorist attack with a truck today, I would be incredibly undergunned with my XDS. Having a truck careening down a bike path mowing down people requires a long gun with a high capacity magazine. Nobody carries that. So even if this hadn't happened in NYC and there were a couple of CCW holders there, I doubt they would have been able to do anything to stop that threat and seeking cover and fleeing would have been the only option.
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