S&W 25-2 with .45 Auto Rim

[LAGS]

I recently aquired a S&W 25-2 in .45 ACP in a horse trade deal that it looks like someone has shortened the barrel to 2 3/4".
I like the looks of the pistol, but have yet to fire it.
My question is,
Looking at the loading data in all of my books, the .45 Auto Rim is loaded considerably lower than the .45 ACP.
I had a Webly and a Colt years ago and used the Auto Rim, and I remember that they were not rated for the Modern .45 ACP pressures.
Is the Auto Rim loading data a carry over from those models, or can the .45 auto Rim be loaded the same as the Current .45 ACP.
This pistol looks like it would be great for Steel competition, and may consider trying it at that some day.

[Kosh75287]

I think the cartridge can be loaded to the same ballistics as a .45 ACP, but in a finely tuned revolver like that, I'D be inclined to take it easy when loading it. I like 4.0/Red Dot/200gr. LSWC for light plinking. The same powder and charge weight under a 225gr. TC or 230 LRN also makes for a fine steel plate load. These loads can be duplicated with any number of propellant/projectile combinations. I list these two as examples of "taking it easy" when shooting the classic firearms.

[Char-Gar]

I recently aquired a S&W 25-2 in .45 ACP in a horse trade deal that it looks like someone has shortened the barrel to 2 3/4".
I like the looks of the pistol, but have yet to fire it.
My question is,
Looking at the loading data in all of my books, the .45 Auto Rim is loaded considerably lower than the .45 ACP.
I had a Webly and a Colt years ago and used the Auto Rim, and I remember that they were not rated for the Modern .45 ACP pressures.
Is the Auto Rim loading data a carry over from those models, or can the .45 auto Rim be loaded the same as the Current .45 ACP.
This pistol looks like it would be great for Steel competition, and may consider trying it at that some day.

The 25-2 is a strong revolver and can be loaded with 45 AR ammo to full 45 ACP spec with zero problems. Some even up that a mite. I have had several of these over the years and now own just one. It has the barrel shortened to 4". My most used load these days is the 242 grain 452423 over 4.5 - 5.0 grains of Bullseye. Bullets of .454 diameter or even .455 will work best to match the charge hole throats.

These revolvers were introduced in 1955 as the "1955 Target Model" with a 6.5" barrel. Later it was marketed as the Model 25-2 and somewhere along the way the barrel length was changed to 6".

[smkummer]

At one time, it was recommended to just load identical data in either 45 acp or 45 auto rim case. For some reason late data for 45 auto rim is lower pressure than 45 acp. The original 1917 guns are now approaching 100 years old. I guess it's possible that reloading manuals are mindful that some 45 auto rim is being fired in shaved webleys. Obtained my first 1917 Colt in the 80's and was never worried about the strength firing mostly cast bullet reloads with data from the usual manuals.

[Outpost75]

First thing I would do is pin out the cylinder throats and see how large they are, as some of the Model 25s run quite large, but they shoot well with bullets which "fit."

I like the Accurate 45-240H1 in my S&W .45 Hand Ejector 1917 and also in my Webley Mk.VI, loading either one with 3.5 grains of Bullseye for about 600 fps. Pleasant to shoot, but quick recoil recovery for fast DA and "authoritative" on the steel targets.

I size .455" for both!

Attachment 206739

[vzerone]

You realize that in modern cartridge pressure testing they use a vent barrel for cartridges that are strictly revolver cartridges. They also feel that there are many "old" 45 revolvers around and caution the data on the safe side.

[LAGS]

You are correct about the cylinder Throats be Generous on the Smith.
A .452 slug drops right thru no problem.
I am going to have to check out the actual barrel Groove diameter and Throat size.
Looks like I am going to have to buy a larger Sizer and cast and load only for this revolver, and keep my .45 ACP load for my Custom Colt 1911 seperate.
The Colt chamber is tight if you use a .452 Bullet in the case, but works well with the bullets sized to .451.

[Outpost75]

You may want to consider Lee .455 Webley dies with an Auto Rim or ACP shell holder, to size,and expand brass properly for larger diameter bullets, and to permit roll crimping your revolver loads. I do this with the Accurate bullet above and it works well for me. Makes it easy to keep the autopistol and revolver loads separate too.

[daniel lawecki]

Yes use the same data I do in mine no problems at all.

[Drm50]

I got a couple 25-2s that I shoot nothing but WC cast target loads in 45AR brass. The problem with 25s is under spec throats in cylinder. Bullet gets "undersized" by the chamber , smaller dia
than bore. The only thing you can do in this situation is have throats opened up.

[square butte]

Both of my 25-2's had oversize throats - not undersize throats. Mine ran .456-.458. I'd like to find a 25-2 with undersize cylinder throats. That cylinder would be off and sent to Doug Guy faster than Jack Spratt.

[Char-Gar]

You are correct about the cylinder Throats be Generous on the Smith.
A .452 slug drops right thru no problem.
I am going to have to check out the actual barrel Groove diameter and Throat size.
Looks like I am going to have to buy a larger Sizer and cast and load only for this revolver, and keep my .45 ACP load for my Custom Colt 1911 seperate.
The Colt chamber is tight if you use a .452 Bullet in the case, but works well with the bullets sized to .451.

The various Smith and Wesson DA revolvers made before the late 80's had cylinder throats in the .456 - .4565 area. The barrel groove is pretty consistent at .452. For an expander for larger bullets in the 45 ACP case, I use one from a Lyman 310 die set in 45 Colt. These are .454 and do well with .454 to .456 bullets.

I have a Smith and Wesson 625 made in 1989 that has .453 throats and it is a jewel to shoot.

[LAGS]

My revolver is of 1984 vintage.
And it has the .456 cylinder throats with a .452 barrel.
I will load up some ammo with the 45 AR cases and see how it does.
But for Steel at close range, I think it will be plenty accurate with the .452 slugs for now.
Especially with such a short barrel

[Kosh75287]

The 25-2 is a strong revolver and can be loaded with 45 AR ammo to full 45 ACP spec with zero problems.

No argument, but any tuning or fitting that has been done in than name of enhancing accuracy gets battered harder and diminishes faster, when heavier loads are used. It's kinda like buying a match-grade Gold-Cup, set up for loads that throw 185gr. SWCs at 750 f/s, and feeding it nothing but military ball. Eventually, that match-grade accuracy will diminish.

[35remington]

Nevertheless, the point made earlier that the 25 can take a lot of full power 45 ACP equivalent is quite correct. The 25 isn't "tuned or fitted" but rather amply stout for 45 ACP. There is no need to worry or advise that full power 45 ACP will take the gilt edge of accuracy away quickly, because it won't.

[Outpost75]

Nevertheless, the point made earlier that the 25 can take a lot of full power 45 ACP equivalent is quite correct. The 25 isn't "tuned or fitted" but rather amply stout for 45 ACP. There is no need to worry or advise that full power 45 ACP will take the gilt edge of accuracy away quickly, because it won't.

Just don't try that in a "shaved" Webley, because eventually the gun WILL fail, read the "sticky."

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

[35remington]

I did not mention the Webley at all. Only the Smith 25.

[texasnative46]

LAGS,

Fwiw, the original/factory load from PETERS was exactly the same ballistics as the Model 1911, 230 FMJ load for the Colt's GM.
(I'd "back off some" IF loading for a Webley Mk VI.)

yours, tex

[denul]

In Handloader number 254, August / September 2008, Brian Pearce makes a convincing argument that current revolvers in good condition will tolerate 45 ACP + pressures, even though SAAMI specifies a much lower pressure, apparently not out of deference to 1917 revolvers but rather to a possibility of leading with the very soft lead bullet Factory loads offered by Remington until being discontinued in 1997. He does advise caution regarding seating depth and increasing pressures when giving loads for the 280gr cast 270-SAA. My 625s are overdue for a trip to Dougguy but I have used loads from the above article without issue in these as well as a 1917.
Another source of loads that should almost certainly be abandoned is in the old Speer number 8 Manual that included some 4756 and 2400 loads that were well into to what would now be considered Magnum territory. I still like 4756, and really regret its discontinuation, but my use of my fortunately ample (hoarded?) supply these days is in much milder loads. Speer abandoned all of those in the subsequent number 9 manual, but even when I foolishly used some of those in my youth they apparently did not harm a model 55 Target after about 1,500 rounds. Not at all a recommendation, just an observation, and limited to and by my own experience only .

[LAGS]

I ordered a Lee 255 grain .452 mold and a .454 sizer.
All my other Lee molds cast a little wider.
But if it doesn't cast to .454 , I will just lap out the mold a little.
Now , does anyone have any suggestions on powders or loads for the heavier bullet in cast ?
The only powder I am out of is Red Dot, but I mostly use Unique in my handgun loads