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Thread: Primers backing out

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    sorry for the hullabaloo, never meant to drill his holes only that I had drilled some for rubber bullets powered by primers alone, the instruction sheets called for drilling the holes or you would have primers backing out, my suggestion was to check that the primer hole was not fouled or bad. sure has been some good learning otherwise.

  2. #22
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    Char Gar, I missed your earlier post , I think due to we posted so close together. You at 3:35(1535) & I at 3:38(1538).

    After seeing your post above, I am going to go read the other now. It sounds from this last post that you answered the questions I have about opening up flash holes in primer pockets. I just missed it .
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Cylinder end play can cause it too. But, you would start having misfired from light primer strikes.
    Something worth checking.
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  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    The minimum load or a 45 Colt, 250-255gr bullet is 7.0 grs of Unique. Increase your powder charge to 7.5 and then 8.0grs. If the primers continue to back out, the issue sounds like a head space problem
    Regards
    John

  5. #25
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    I didn't mean to set off a forum storm with my post, was just looking for answers to something I wasn't understanding. Other than sticking a bullet in the bore, I never would have imagined problems that could occur from light loads. Load data varies from source to source, I don't recall if my 6.0 grain load was below any of my sources minimum starting loads. I don't use internet based load data, I have a dozen or more load manuals of various types that I rely on for load data. Thanks again to everyone. I've learned a lot from this thread, I hope others have found it of interest as well. For the record, I never have, nor will I drill out any flash holes! I had to head smack myself over that.

    Happy trails everyone - JJ

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Well, I found your situation interesting, just as I did the other topic. Enough that I payed attention to both. I just happened to notice the difference in them & say something. In the interest of knowing which is correct, and to possibly make others aware of the two opposing views, I thought it proper to bring to to both topics readers attention, as well as anyone else who happened on one or the other. So, it is not you who anyone might get bothered about the bringing up of your situation.

    No one has commented in that other topic about this so far. I do not know why. but I myself am still not understanding why, other than blanks/no projectile, or wax ones at low pressures, would anyone do it to use for loads of higher pressure and perhaps cause damage to the firearm or possibly injury to the user. Unless there is some good reason to do it in some circumstances.

    Perhaps it is OK if one remembers to only use those particular cases for low pressure rounds & not let them get used for high pressure ones.

    It is a case of either one, the other, or both. Up til now I have not seen anything that explains anything but the reasons in this topic to NOT to do it unless it is in low pressure type loads as mentioned. So, my understanding, until something changes & is explained differently or expounded upon, That is the way I will consider that practice. Hoping that someone who doesn't know the difference it makes to a case & uses them for a higher pressure round due to ignorance, then ends up with tragic results does not happen.


    I think your topic here was a good thing because of what it provided for knowledge that some of us were not aware of before, not the other way around. So, Thanks! for sharing your experience in the OP so that folks can learn from what was shared here.


    Happy Trails to you too!


    P.S. - I am now going to be looking closely at primer openings more closely when I buy any cases that are not once fired, if I do happen to want to buy some cases at an auction/sale or find some laying around at a range or the like...
    Last edited by JBinMN; 10-27-2017 at 07:52 PM.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

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  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master



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    The why of opening flash holes is to increase accuracy and ignition with certain loads or powder or to prevent primers from backing out on blanks and wax bullet loads.

    some interesting discussion here.
    https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/thr...ngerous.62189/

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    The why of opening flash holes is to increase accuracy and ignition with certain loads or powder or to prevent primers from backing out on blanks and wax bullet loads.

    some interesting discussion here.
    https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/thr...ngerous.62189/
    Thanks for bringing that link & its discussion here. It is Interesting. For me it still demonstrates two camps though. The one is the no use of those modified cases, but for low pressure situations like blanks & wax projectiles, and that is were I think I will keep "my" reloading practices. The last post in that discussion sounded pretty good for a recommendation. I think it is pretty sound advice. Particularly the underlined below.
    The folks that develop sub-sonic rifle rounds often recommend boring out the flash holes to increase the effectiveness of primer ignition of the slower burning and typically lower pressure powders. They also recommend keeping the over bored flash hole case segregated to avoid potentially quite dangerous over pressure situations resulting from using those cases with standard faster powders and load data. Thus, in your case I would tend to err on the side of caution and not use the over bored flash hole cases in my normal reloading routine.
    The OP says he contacted Winchester about those Non Toxic cartridges with the over size primer holes and said they told him the modified cases would be fine with normal loads. The quote from ReloaderFred thru Starline says that is not correct. But, Winchester apparently allowed production & sales of these "NT" rounds , knowing that the flash holes were acceptable for safety & could & likely would be used in the future by reloaders, even though they may not know about the primer flash hole situation...

    So, that is part of the what is confusing...

    Erring on the side of caution is prudent, IMO. Thus I say I am not interested in enlarging flash holes. But, apparently there are those who think it is Ok to do it, "but only under special circumstances" (<my emphasis) in certain loads other than blanks & wax/etc..

    So now it is apparently a "both" are correct, dependent on circumstances.

    I will be doing more snooping around & researching on this, simply because I am that sort. I am also quite surprised that I have not run into this circumstance before in the other research I have done about reduced loads & their makeup. I am not saying I have covered it all, but I sure have put some appreciable time into it. I know I have not ever researched "enlarged primer flash holes & their uses), but apparently it is time to start.

    It does puzzle me a bit that I keep seeing it suggested to keep these modified cases separate from non modified ones due to possible issues, but at the same time some have offered that they can be used with normal load data... Something still just isn't sitting right with me due to that not being clear to me, but maybe I am just being skeptical & prudent by trying to stay to the safe side of caution.. I do not need any more "issues" at all, anywhere in "my" life right now. I will stick to the "just don't do it" mindset right now.

    I thank you & anyone else who has shown an interest in explaining this stuff. It is just more knowledge about the "Art". It is good to share the reasons why things are done the way they are, & why things are not done to prevent issues.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

    Phil Robertson explains the Wall: https://youtu.be/f9d1Wof7S4o

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master


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    It never ceases to amaze me the contradictions we do;

    Many firearm manufacturers say not to use handloads in their guns….yet we do.

    Many :experts” say not to exceed SAAMI MAPs yet is some cartridges like the 45 Colt and 45-70 we do.

    The powder manufactures and loading manuals say not to use below the “start” loads…yet we do.

    Etc., etc. ad nauseum…….

    And here because a manufacture say not to use regular loads in blank cases with enlarged flash holes we are saying the sky is falling and we must ell the king to never drill out flash holes no matter what…….

    My point is when we use a technique what we are ”not supposed to do” according to the “experts” yet stay within the correct parameters for such technique the practice is safe and most often beneficial.

    Drilling out flash holes is one of those techniques.

    The use of drilled out flash holes is safe and beneficial when done with correct parameters. The use of such is to reduce shoulder setback which causes case headspace problems including misfires with rimless cartridges using LR primers with true cats’ sneeze loads. Additionally the use of rimless cases with drilled flash holes also increases ignition reliability (reduces powder position sensitivity) in such loads.

    In this instance of backed out primers in 45 Colt cases would not be a proper use of drilled out flash holes. The case is a rimmed case and has no shoulder so there is no case headspace problem. Also the capacity of the case is really not that large to need drilled flash holes for improved ignition. The OP using Unique should either increase the charge of Unique or use a faster burning powder to solve the problem.

    BTW; using cases with drilled out flash holes in proper cases such as the .308W or 30-06 with “regular cast bullets loads” such a 311291 over Unique, 4198, 2400, 3031 or 4895 at 1500 – 1900 fps does not increase pressure nor cause any other problems. I know this because I have tested such measuring the pressure. There really wasn’t much benefit with such loads over cases with regular flash holes either so their use isn’t necessary. However if you shoot real “cat’s sneeze” loads, especially in push feeds, with cartridges using LR primers the cases will develop case headspace problems resulting in misfires if you do not drill out the flash holes.
    Larry Gibson

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  11. #31
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    As chamber pressures go up the effect of an oversize flash hole increase.

    The 45 acp is a relatively low pressure round. That is why Winchester stated the green case is safe with normal 21,000 and under 45 ACP loads.

    Same with the 45 Colt and 45/70 that are commonly oversize. In the case of the 45 Colt some loads for some guns can triple the SAAMI chamber pressure. In the 45/70 some Ruger #1 and bolt guns loads jump from 28,000 psi max to over 50,000 psi.

  12. #32
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    That is a really light load of Unique even for a Colt SSA. I believe off the top of my head you can go 8-8.5 in the Colt. If you're not wanting to use much powder and stay on the light side Bullseye and Red Dot are better. I love Unique though for my loads that aren't light.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks oldblinddog & Larry Gibson for taking the time to help out. I will read the whole topic that was offered in just a few minutes & I read your post Mr. Gibson. I am posting this post in both topics since you both were kind enough to do so for the benefit of me and any one else who might have been interested.

    As ya may or may not have seen, I was not "pointing this out to create any hassles, only to try to get clarification for myself & any others who may read about doing it to try an accomplish one thing & then not read about not doing it because it could cause a safety issue..."

    Mr. Gibson, I would not consider that as the "sky falling" & "we must tell the king".

    I have been following a topic that you posted a short time back that addressed your finding that some manuals pressure data using what is considered "normal" loads wer creating overpressure in some of your tests. Did your sharing of that information get considered as "the sky is falling" or " we must tell the king" type of a post? I did not get that feeling when I followed it. You appeared to be letting folks know something that you found that apparently was noteworthy enough to let folks here know about it. Some paid attention & some did not. But, I reckon it was your intention to let folks here know that you had found an "inconsistancy" in the data that was offered by a well known company in the ammunition/reloading/firearms field.

    Well, maybe you don't see what I did as the same, but I saw what I thought was an "inconsistancy" in information & rather than condemn or belittle anyone, I asked for clarification on the issue. I saw one topic where it was OK & another where it was not. Not too much different IMO, than a manual stating a load is safe with pressure , but someone else saying it may not be.

    I really appreciate the efforts anyone has made to clear up "my" confusion on this subject of the enlarged primer holes. I also would like folks to understand my efforts to find out here were motivated by the urge for more knowledge & from what I have understood, that is what this forum is all about. Sharing "correct" information to help out others & so folks don't make mistakes & have things happen that could have been avoided.

    Now, if I am wrong in thinking that way, then perhaps someone could inform me about it thru a PM or something, so that "I" don't create the feeling that the sky is falling in either topic to prevent any hijacking of the subjects presented in each topic.

    I, personally am satisfied with the explanations I have now read & do not intend to trouble anyone else here for info on this particular subject any longer. Of course, I cannot speak for anyone else.

    Thanks again for your posts & help in understanding.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

    Phil Robertson explains the Wall: https://youtu.be/f9d1Wof7S4o

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    As chamber pressures go up the effect of an oversize flash hole increase.

    The 45 acp is a relatively low pressure round. That is why Winchester stated the green case is safe with normal 21,000 and under 45 ACP loads.

    Same with the 45 Colt and 45/70 that are commonly oversize. In the case of the 45 Colt some loads for some guns can triple the SAAMI chamber pressure. In the 45/70 some Ruger #1 and bolt guns loads jump from 28,000 psi max to over 50,000 psi.
    Thanks M-tecs! I really appreciate it. I am pretty sure I understand now.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

    Phil Robertson explains the Wall: https://youtu.be/f9d1Wof7S4o

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    It always pays to ask questions.
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  16. #36
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    This board's knowledge never ceases to amaze me!
    Good read!

    Nice having a bite to eat with you last night, Jeff100.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master

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    now I am glad I started the hullabaloo, learned a lot, a big thank you for the further info.

  18. #38
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    I've reloaded the Winchester NT cases (with the 1/8" flash hole) without a problem, but like M-Tecs said, it's a low pressure round.

    The increased flash hole size was done during the development of the Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) priming compound workups to relieve the increased brisance of the DDNP compound over the older lead styphnate compound. It, in addition to primer crimping and reducing the primer size to Small Pistol, were all iterations of the conversion process for the demand for Non-Toxic priming. This was driven in most part due to indoor ranges and lead contamination problems among employees and users, which is another whole discussion that has been beat to death all over the internet, and beyond. This is only offered as to an explanation of the oversize flash holes in Winchester and Federal .45 acp brass that I've encountered, and discussions with the Winchester and Federal reps at the various SHOT Shows when I've talked to them about the subject.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy
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    I bet that your gun has a headspace problem, not a load problem. Take your gun to good revolver smith and he can tell you. I had a similar problem with a Ruger Blackhawk. I sent it back to Ruger and they took care of it.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Also check the flash holes in the cases as a ton of 45 colt has had the holes drilled out for wax loads and such and the cases may not have been marked.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check