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Thread: Primers backing out

  1. #41
    Boolit Mold
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    I am wondering if the firing pin bushing is seated below the level of the frame.

  2. #42
    Boolit Buddy jeff100's Avatar
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    I finally made it back out to the range today to finish testing the hand loads for the 45 Colt that I had trouble with the primers backing out. The members that said my hand loads were too light were spot on the money. I finished shooting the rest of those hand loads that had a heavier charge of Unique and they all shot well, no issues with primers backing out (and staying backed out). Unfortunately I felt like Unique was not the right powder for this cartridge and I will try loads with the same boolit over a faster powder, Green Dot and IMR 700X, which I have a lot of it. If anyone wants to share their favorite powder for shooting cast in a 45 Colt revolver, I would be interested, even if your favorite is Unique. Thanks everyone.

  3. #43
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    Glad you got it figured out. Light loads leave the primers backed out, and you're not the first one to be puzzled by it. It's just the nature of the beast and the way things are.

    I use a lot of TrailBoss in my .45 Colt loads for my revolvers and Marlin rifles. I'm not loading barn burners with these, just having fun shooting...

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy jeff100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    Glad you got it figured out. Light loads leave the primers backed out, and you're not the first one to be puzzled by it. It's just the nature of the beast and the way things are.

    I use a lot of TrailBoss in my .45 Colt loads for my revolvers and Marlin rifles. I'm not loading barn burners with these, just having fun shooting...

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    Yes, it does Fred, thanks. I'm working up a comfortable load I can shoot all day in the 45 Colt. If I want to rattle the walls I'll get my 44 mags out. Others have mentioned Trail Boss, I'll have to pick up a pound and try it out.

    JJ

  5. #45
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    Jeff,

    TrailBoss has really worked out well for me, since I also wanted some light loads that I could shoot all day. I use a 200 gr. RNFP bullet in both the revolvers and the rifles. I can regularly hit the 10" gong at 100 yards offhand with my TB and 200 gr. loads from the rifle. That's good enough for what I want to do with it, but to tell you the truth, I've never really shot it from the bench at 100 yards to see what it will actually group.

    TrailBoss comes in a 9 oz. bottle, but there's a lot of loads in 9 ounces, and it works out to about the same price as other powders, at least where I buy it. I'm currently spending $16.95 per bottle, if I buy the one pound size. I prefer to buy my powders by the keg, and the regular 8 pound keg only holds 5 pounds of TrailBoss. It's that fluffy!

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff100 View Post
    I felt like Unique was not the right powder for this cartridge and I will try loads with the same boolit over a faster powder, Green Dot and IMR 700X, which I have a lot of it. If anyone wants to share their favorite powder for shooting cast in a 45 Colt revolver, I would be interested, even if your favorite is Unique. Thanks everyone.
    8 grains Unique. Over 50K loaded since the early 70's

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    All primers back out when fired. The case movement reseats them. If the case doesn't have enough pressure to reseat them it can be a problem. Two tests to prove it. Fire a primed empty case in a revolver and see what happens. Second test is to note the primer depth on any of your loads. Fire them and check to see how many are still below flush.
    I've been following this thread with interest and to see if there is something I can learn from it. So far I disagree with the primers backing out with too lite a load. I tried firing a cartridge without a bullet and power and the result is it fired and the primer didn't move back. I repeated this several times and the result is the same. I tried this with my 686-6 also and the result was the primer didn't back out a bit.

    So, I have a 686-6 with a total number of rounds thru it is less than 100. I have a 25-5 with about the same total of rounds thru it. I have a new 629-6 with only 50 rounds thru it. None of these will back the primer out with an empty case and none will back out the primer with mouse type loads.

    I question your findings. Respectfully however. Please do find printed reliable information to back up this backing the primer from the case with low power loads.

  8. #48
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    As one that has to look at all the information in order to solve my customers problems on service calls that I run I find myself wanting to add to the information, my experiences of not having primers back out.

    First of all I have to look at the cases. They all are brand new. They all are Starline in the case of the 44magnum and 45LC. The 357 cases are WW and again are 100% new and never before fired. The primers mic on the high side the diameter. Not all primers are the same size as some that you notice that go in easy can and sometimes do mic a little smaller. The guns are what you could call almost new and never abused so to be blunt not badly worn or worn out.

    So far in looking on the web the only references I have seen to primers backing out were in the 45LC and rifles. I still have not come up with info from what I will consider to be a noted credible loader like Elmer keith.

  9. #49
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    Here is a link to what a primer does upon firing, though the article addresses rifle ammunition, but the principle is the same for handguns:

    https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDev...onceptions/139

    The pertinent information is in Paragraph 14 & 15.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    Here is a link to what a primer does upon firing, though the article addresses rifle ammunition, but the principle is the same for handguns:

    https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDev...onceptions/139

    The pertinent information is in Paragraph 14 & 15.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    Sir, I understand what is supposed to happed or the supposed theory. I don't understand however why I cannot reproduce the same effects. The fact I cannot reproduce the primer kick back has me wondering. I used a lab type control using NEW brass and primers that were miced to make sure I didn't have undersized primers. I simply cannot get a primer kick back.

  11. #51
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    I see it all the time in our SASS matches. People try to back off the loads as much as possible for shooting steel targets at relatively close range. When they get too light with their loads, the cylinders lock up from backed out primers. At the next match, after bumping up their loads, they no longer have the problem.

    When I was rangemaster for our department back in the late 1970's, we fired some courses using wax bullets in .38 Spl. revolvers. We had the same problem with primers backing out and locking up the cylinders of our Model 19's. For that purpose, I drilled out the flash holes to 1/8" and marked the brass with a cut in the case rim so they wouldn't get loaded for practice ammunition. Relieving the primer pressure stopped the backed out primers from locking up the cylinders.

    I've been loading since 1963, and I remember one of the owners of a gunshop telling me when I first started about this condition, and to make sure that my loads were "strong enough" to reseat the primers. I've been able to cause primers to back out when I've tried it, but I can't explain why your experiment didn't give the same result.

    The last time I had it happen was when making some dummy rounds in .45-70 for a class, and they wanted the expended primers left in place. I ended up priming 50 rounds of old .45-70 brass and firing them one at a time in my 1895 Marlin with just the primers. I had to reseat every one of those primers, as they were backed out of the cases a considerable distance. So much in fact, that I had to use an RCBS shell holder with the recess for primers in order to reseat them. The backed out primers wouldn't allow the cases to enter my Redding shell holder past the primers.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  12. #52
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    My 45 Colt-ing gets done with a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5". These are a stronger platform than are Colt SAAs or their clones by Uberti.

    My pet 45 Colt load using Unique is 10.0 grains. I also use 10.5 grains of Herco. Both loads give 980-1020 FPS to either Lyman #454424 or #454190. In my Uberti Cattleman x 4.75", I backed both powder weights off by 1.0 grains. Velocities in the PastaColta's shorter barrel were in the 820-850 FPS range. 9.0 grains of Unique in the Uberti did not give sticky extraction, and 10.0 grains does not cause stickiness in the Ruger.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master JBinMN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    I've been following this thread with interest and to see if there is something I can learn from it. So far I disagree with the primers backing out with too lite a load. I tried firing a cartridge without a bullet and power and the result is it fired and the primer didn't move back. I repeated this several times and the result is the same. I tried this with my 686-6 also and the result was the primer didn't back out a bit.

    So, I have a 686-6 with a total number of rounds thru it is less than 100. I have a 25-5 with about the same total of rounds thru it. I have a new 629-6 with only 50 rounds thru it. None of these will back the primer out with an empty case and none will back out the primer with mouse type loads.

    Snip...
    I appreciate your attempts to experiment to find out for yourself if you could have an issue with these sort of things. I work on reduced loads to help my missus be able to have fun & shoot due to her hand health issues. I am interested, since you are taking the time & effort to try to find out this sort of thing, to learn more about your results from your testing. Your limiting the experiments to new brass & primers is a good way to narrow the results from having variables that effect your tests & possibly skew your results.It is & would be great if you continue to share what you find & add as many dtails about what you are testing & how so folks can learn from it.

    I am curious, since after reading your posts & not seeing what I would like to know...
    Could you please say what primers you used to test for this issue with the non loaded rounds?


    The reason I ask , is that difference primer manufacturers have different primer "brisance". ( I believe that is the correct term...) That each manufacturer , since they have different "pressures" based on the "brisance" amount, may mean that one with the low brisance may not cause the effect of having the primer back out with no projectile to cause "back pressure, while another may have more brisance & thus even if there is no projectile, it has enough brisance/"power" to cause the primer to back out.

    Also, do you think that maybe , since the rounds were not loaded when you checked that particular type of primer , that there was no "back pressure" to force the primers out of the pockets based on their "brisance" level?

    Or, does the combination have to have that "back pressure" in new cases like you are using. Then, if the cases are "once fired" or more, the primer pocket may have opened up a bit & then it may not take that "back pressure from a projectile to cause the primer to back out...Thus being that way so far, that your experiment may just not have had the right "parameters" to fully cover "all the bases" to make a determination on what is/might be happening, since you are using new unfired cases & not those that have been fired more than once & then creating another variable to consider in your test results..

    Thanks for reporting your findings & I , for one, am interested in more info if you are willing to share it. If ya have the time & inclination to reply with more data & results, that would be excellent.
    Helps out other if nothing else & saves others from having to repeat the same tests for themselves.
    Last edited by JBinMN; 11-09-2017 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Sure... Longer post & I am trying to fix any mistakes that I made... ;)
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  14. #54
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    Just for clarification, Brisance is the measurement of the speed of an explosion, or the shattering effect, not the amount of the explosion. Brisance has a bearing in primers when comparing Lead Styphnate primers to Diazondinitropenol (DDNP) primers, which are what the newer non-toxic primers are made of.

    I understand what you're referring to, JBnMN, it's just an incorrect term in this circumstance. What you're looking for is the volume of gases released from the explosive compound of the different priming mixtures from different manufacturers, since each company uses a proprietary compound in their primers.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master JBinMN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    Just for clarification, Brisance is the measurement of the speed of an explosion, not the amount of the explosion. Brisance has a bearing in primers when comparing Lead Styphnate primers to Diazondinitropenol (DDNP) primers, which are what the newer non-toxic primers are made of.

    I understand what you're referring to, JBnMN, it's just an incorrect term in this circumstance. What you're looking for is the volume of gases released from the explosive compound of the different priming mixtures from different manufacturers, since each company uses a proprietary compound in their primers.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    Thanks Fred!


    At least you & I knew what I was talking about with "pressure" rather than speed. Thanks for your clarification so both myself &others will understand the difference & what I was really trying to talk about.


    Next is for me to figure out what that term is for the pressure of the primer only & the expanding gases produced. I am sure there is a term for it, but either my memory fails me right now, or ignorance keeps me from remembering or knowing right now.


    Thanks again for your help.
    "If ya don't like my gate, ya don't have to swing on the hinges..." - L. Ackerman ( RIP)

  16. #56
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    I think pressure pretty well covers it, JB. Just about everything involved in a round going off centers around pressure, and it's effect on the various components and containment vessels.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  17. #57
    Boolit Buddy jeff100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    Next is for me to figure out what that term is for the pressure of the primer only & the expanding gases produced. I am sure there is a term for it, but either my memory fails me right now, or ignorance keeps me from remembering or knowing right now.
    Could that term be brisance?

    JJ

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff100 View Post
    Could that term be brisance?

    JJ
    Brisance refers to the velocity, or fracturing effect, of an explosive. I think what we're looking at is the amount of pressure the primer produces, and how that pressure is alleviated.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  19. #59
    Boolit Buddy jeff100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    Brisance refers to the velocity, or fracturing effect, of an explosive. I think what we're looking at is the amount of pressure the primer produces, and how that pressure is alleviated.

    Fred
    Well, OK. Doing a little digital digging around, the only other term I could find that related to primer performance was the term 'blast pressure'. I found this term in a Cornell University Library white paper titled Performance testing of lead free primers. This paper also used this term blast pressure waveform to describe a graph showing primer (detonation) pressure waveforms for various brand primers. This was an interesting read to me, if you have an interest this white paper can be found here.

    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1410/1410.6390.pdf

    JJ

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check