About ten years ago, I used to travel with a small tool box sized reloading kit with a Lee hand press. I used a small RCBS electronic scale and a lil-Dandy and uniflow powder measures.
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About ten years ago, I used to travel with a small tool box sized reloading kit with a Lee hand press. I used a small RCBS electronic scale and a lil-Dandy and uniflow powder measures.
I did try loading 50 7.62x54r cases hand weighing on one of those cheaper digital scales once. Started out with a quite low load of 20 grains of IMR 4895. Then somewhere around case #35 it overflowed. I scratched my head. Did another, it overflowed and had about 5 grains more than the one before.
Grabbed a flashlight, pretty obvious somewhere the scale started adding about 5 grains to each load. So it went from 20 to 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55 and started overflowing.
So I dumped them all, made a powder dipper of the right size. Recalibrated the scale. And I just don't try to hand weigh charges with it. If I want to do that I get out the old reliable RCBS balance scale.
Great for checking a couple of bullets.
But I watch it like a hawk around powder.
IMO they mostly do an ok job. If you keep the scale pan clean, powder tray antistatic'ed with a used dryer sheet, etc.
Like any other tool, you can drive in a nail with a 9$ hammer or with a 90$ hammer. Comes down to how many you drive. If you do it all day for a living, you want the good one.
All depends on how much you plan to use it and how accurate you need it to be.
I've been using the same Dillon electronic scale for well over 15 years. I suspect Dillon outsources stuff like that and simply specifies that it be blue and have their name on it. Regardless of the manufacturer, it's been a great scale. I've also used a few beam scales and still keep an old RCBS on hand as a back-up. Electronic scales were once very expensive items but the cost of manufacturing these items have come down considerably. What was a $120 scale in 1990 is now a $20 scale and they are of the same quality if not better.
I'm not saying that all cheap scale are good scales but I don't think price is the impediment it once was.
The technology that goes into a small electronic scale isn't all that special anymore (strain gauge, processor, LCD display, power source) and I don't think it's difficult to make an inexpensive scale that's adequate for reloading.
MidwayUSA sells a Frankfort Arsenal digital scale for $30 and people seem to think they are OK.
My "trust" in a scale has more to do with its consistency with a known check weight than its price.
This is where the cheap scales will come up short. I will list a few of the issues:Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder
- Automaric shutoff, not on all of them. But just as the scale is warming up it shuts off.
- Drift, it will read a check weight properly, but over time it's value starts to drift. This is obviously an issue since we're weighing charges of powder.
- Sensitivity, matters because of trickling powder. Most of the cheap ones aren't sensitive enough to register powder when you trickle in into the pan. It should register when you place a piece of .25"x.25" paper on it. Had ones that took multiple pieces until it would read.
- Differing weights in relation to pan position. You can put a check weight on four corners and it will read differently. Some of the ones I tested wouldn't read any weight in relation to pan position.
- Repeatability, will it register the same weight if you take it on and off the pan repeatedly. If you a thrown charge readings 4.2 through 4.5 then how do you know what it really weighs? Not a big deal w/ large volume rifle loads. But a very big deal w/ a high pressure pistol round like 9mm. Especially if you're loading near max.
While the technology has gotten better they aren't all the same. We are dealing w/ propellants and very high pressures. Do you trust your fingers and eyes to a cheap scale? And I mean trust it to the extent that you aren't checking it at all against a beam scale.
Not all higher cost scales are immune to issues. Jmorris has a video showing a RCBS Chargemaster drifting. Mine does not do this. Either does a PACT DPPS that I own. But it shows that it can and will happen.
Maybe it's time I buy a bunch of scales and test them again. Last time I did people refuted my findings. It seems people don't like hearing the product they own has issues. Or in some cases was complete garbage. The two electronics I still own are the ones I trust. But there are others, like the Gempro, that are just as good if not better.
I ordered this scale to test:
SE WC2610-5 Pocket Electronic 5 Unit Digital Scale Grams, Ounces, Tola, Carat, Grain, 17 oz Capacity https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01L1JG4U8..._XJX8zbR8P2HN9
It has a 60 second automatic shutoff so I don't have much hope for it working well.
Last edited by dragon813gt; 10-27-2017 at 07:32 AM.
I don't dispute what you are saying but the crux of the matter is right here:
"Not all higher cost scales are immune to issues. Jmorris has a video showing a RCBS Chargemaster drifting."
Cost isn't the determining factor of quality. If a scale can be made for $10 and it's adequate; selling it for $60 doesn't magically make it better. There's a tendency to believe that the more you pay for something the better it must be. Marketers know this and capitalize on this trait. That DOESN'T mean all inexpensive scales are the same quality as higher cost scales but it DOES mean that some expensive scales are simply priced higher to give the appearance of quality.
There are some fields in which you do get what you pay for. In the field of optics, it is nearly impossible to get the price down without sacrificing quality. There's no way to hit a low price point without compromising on quality somewhere when it come to optics.
Electronics are a different story. It IS possible to manufacture electronics at very low prices. You (the seller) then inflate the asking price to give the illusion of higher quality and pocket a much higher profit.
Not all inexpensive electronic devices are good quality but not all expensive electronics are high quality.
Look at almost any electronic device when it is first introduced to the market, it will be priced as high as the market will bare.
Then, as competition grows and manufacturing becomes more efficient; the price plummets. Electronics can be mass produced very inexpensively.
There is still a big difference between high and low cost scales. It's still a case of you get what you pay for. I pointed out one example of a Chargemaster drifting. There are thousands of them out there and that's the only issue I've seen about one. The one I have doesn't exhibit this issue.
While electronics can be made cheap it doesn't mean they're all created equal. If you trust your extremities to a cheap scale then more power to you. I've tested enough scales to know where the problems lie. It starts w/ not having a cord so it can be plugged in.
There MAY be a difference between high and low cost scales in terms of quality but there is also a very good chance that the high cost scale is simply a cheaply made one that is sold with a huge profit margin.
You get what you pay for isn't a hard rule. Sometimes you pay more for high quality and sometimes you just pay more.
No point
Last edited by dragon813gt; 10-27-2017 at 01:21 PM.
I use the gem pro in my travel kit for several reasons. 1) it is accurate, probably more than I can make use of outdoors. 2) It came with a very nice travel case that holds everything in its place with little chance of damage. 3) its compact and light, this makes my kit easier to carry. 4) it sets up quickly and easily with no "parallax to deal with, 5) it has a clear cover to shield from breezes.
The 5-10 rcbs I was going to use had these issues to contend with. 1) larger size physically. 2) heavier in weight. 3) Has to be disaasembled and assembled this mean calibration needs to be checked each time. 4) a carry case would need to be made for it to hold disassembled with a set of check weights. 4) at least as sensitive if not more so to breezes and vibrations
On my bench there are several scales in digitals / electronics Gem Pro 250, an early rcbs scales and powder drop set up pre charge master this has a infarred sensor between them, a Old Dillion these are all very good but the Gem Pro is easiest to trickle into. In mechanical scales a RCBS dial o grain that I like a lot, a rcbs 5-10 that's 30+ years old and still as accurate as the day I bought it, and a redding oil dampened. I use all of them for one task or another.
These scales are precision interments and need to be checked when ever moved or disassembled. On outdoor use breezes, light and power supply can matter As can others moving around. Lighting can affect sight and also the electronic scales them selves.
Some stuff they dress up the shell but have the same guts. So the item seems "solid" or "well made" but that Oldsmobile isn't a whole lot different than the Chevy when you open the hood. Others are simply made better. Mercedes is better than the Chevy no matter where you look, except for looking in the wallet after paying for that difference. What all these vehicles have in common is in general they get you where you want to go. Question for me always is will the extra money buy me something I need?
One can certainly move most of the scales we use to the range, plug in might be tough but hey you can buy an inverter if you want to and run off of your car. I think "better" for travel or outdoor use might be getting to small degree of differences. I would suggest buy a Lee safety scale, check it before use, pack it as well as possible, don't worry too much if it gets damaged. But then I drive an old Pontiac Sunfire as a commute mobile, with crank up windows. So for me if it works to do the job I need done then it's good.
I would not mind reading a review of the scales you have tested dragon813at. Hands on testing by someone that knows what to look for is a valuable guide to future purchases. A good chunk of Amazon reviews are by people that are not really knowledgeable enough to provide a good assessment. "It didn't work for me" 1 star review by someone that explains exactly how they used it badly or wrong and it failed is less than useful. I'm willing to bet dragon knows how a scale works
Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.
Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.
Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat
I'd like to see a double blind test where: one person buys the scales, hides all reference to brand name and gives the scales to a second party that knows nothing about scales.
The second party then tests the scales and reports the results of scale #1,#2, #3, etc.
I'd be willing to bet the inexpensive ones would turn out to be very close in accuracy/repeatability to the expensive ones.
You can buy high quality but paying more doesn't mean you'll absolutely get high quality.
I have then $9 scale on its way to me. It may be here by Sunday. I will run the tests and see how it performs. If the one review is correct it doesn't read in tenths of grains even though it says it does. I have little doubt that it will flat on its face in many areas.
I think I'll buy one too and hand it to someone that knows nothing about it. I'll tell them that it's a $100 scale and ask them to evaluate it for me..............
I may have missed some details, but this thread seems to be going off topic and degenerating to finger pointing and blame laying.
It is also descending to claims and counterclaims on equipment performance.
The original point to this thread seemed to be akin to "how do you verify you are getting consistent powder charges rather than dangerous powder charges?" So I will stick to that!
Richard Lee handled this by providing load data in his Lee Loaders which would provide safe loads whether the powder was level in the scoop or mounded in the scoop. You can call those scooped charges consistent or inconsistent, whichever you desire! I will merely add that your first attempts with the scoop method are more likely to be inconsistent rather than consistent. As you practice the technique your scoops will become more consistent. Using a scale to validate your technique would be advised while you learn how to scoop consistently.
Scoops were also used with the Lyman 310 "Nutcracker" tools.
A Lyman 55 Powder Measure can be mounted on a TruLine Jr reloading press (5/8"x30 thread). A Lyman 55 Powder Measure has three adjustment bars allowing you to make some rather precise adjustments to the cavity metering the powder. A Lyman 55 Powder Measure comes with a chart telling you how to set each of the three adjustments to drop specific charges of specific powders. A Lyman 55 Powder Measure direction sheet states a deeper cavity meters powder wore accurately than a wider, shallower cavity of the same capacity.
I suspect the powders listed on the chart are very similar to the powders Richard Lee listed on his Lee Loader reloading data for his Lee Loader kits.
I know of a member on our forum that used a Lee dipper to verify the powder charge dropped by a Lyman 55 Powder Measure.
If you intend to set up your portable reloading kit for SHTF times and you only intend to load a few select calibers with boolits cast from scrounged wheel weights a few simple rules might help.
1#=7000 grains.
So, if your powder charge is 2 grains a pound will load 3,500 rounds.
If your powder charge is 5 grains a pound will load 1,400 rounds.
If your powder charge is 10 grains a pound will load 700 rounds.
If your powder charge is 20 grains a pound will load 350 rounds.
So, a Lee Loader, 310 tool, or TruLine Jr press with a few pounds of powder, primers, brass, a SC mould per caliber, a Lee lead pot, a dipper, cookie cutter pan lube kits, powder scoops and/or a Lyman 55 might contribute to a rather capable portable kit.
If I felt I had to use a scale for SHTF, I would choose a balance beam scale in the original box over an electrical scale. On my reloading bench I have both, but for SHTF the balance beam is better.
In SHTF scenarios, I doubt you will have an acceptable location to set up either type of scale for consistent operation. So do learn methods that do not require them!
Last edited by BrassMagnet; 10-27-2017 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Forgot to comment on scale!
Actually, the OP asked:
"Mobile reloading kit - What do people use for a scale?
I've been thinking on that, whether an electronic scale would be "best" or use a beam scale or ?"
Then a discussion developed about inexpensive scales and a poster opined that you "get what you pay for".
This opinion is occasionally true and spending a little more money can sometimes lead to acquiring better quality than products at the rock bottom of the price range.
However, I then pointed out that some of the higher priced electronic scales were nothing more than the low end scales re-labeled and priced higher. That fact resulted in some debate (which I always think is healthy)
I hold that it is possible to acquire better quality by paying a higher price BUT it is equally possible to simply pay a higher price for the same low quality. OR, in other words, "Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometime you just pay more".
There was also some discussion about the price of electronics and quality.
I hold that electronics are almost always grossly overpriced when they first hit the market and the price inevitably goes down when competition gains control.
Electronics can be mass produced for very little and at high quality. We've seen this occurring for the last 50+ years.
Black & White Televisions, color televisions, stereo's, quartz watches, VHS recorders, DVD players, Satellite TV receivers, Computers, Cell Phones, Flat screen TV's, Electronic Scales !!!
When it comes to electronics, price isn't a very good yardstick of quality. If you wait a little while, the price will come down and the quality will often improve even at the lower price.
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 10-28-2017 at 12:03 AM.
Since the plan here is to be working up varmint rifle loads AT the range (I suspect the Apartment complex I live at would get sorta upset if I set a range up in the suburban parking lot here..) What I want's a GOOD scale, I have a Lee dipper set coming but plan to use it for reduced loads mostly, at first anyways. The home reloading set I'm considering getting the (hopefully) good RCBS electronic auto-dispensing electronic set; It's powered off 12V so if I hit Apocalypse thang that I'll power it off an Edison Battery and solar recharge it probably
A word of warning about cheap electronic scales...
They use load cells which are excellent for weighing discrete quantities, very accurate and repeatable.
However as they work by effectively measuring the deflection of a piece of aluminium they have their limits.
One such limit is that they have circuitry built into the called "anti-drift" which acts a bit like a PID controller in principle and tries to "average out" scale drift due to temperature, interference, etc, etc.
The problem with this is that the circuit is designed to look for these little shifts and ignore them, so if you are trickling powder into the pan slowly and carefully the circuitry can filter your additions out until some sort of threshold is hit.
You can test this for yourself by trickling powder into a pan on one of these scales kernel by kernal and the re-weighing after re-zeroing the scale.
They are handy for weighing cases and such like but I wouldn't use them for load development.
The point that I see is this. If it is a SHTF situation and you have an electronic scale (battery or electrical current user) you are going to need a power source and in that situation you are not going to have either. Electricity will be out and battery supply will be cut off. Looks like we are back to a manual scale, at least in my way of thinking. Best bet would be to have a good supply of pre-SHTF ammo already loaded with some small amount of powder, primers and bullets if it really gets bad. Of course in that situation, you had better live in a remote area to begin with or you will quickly be over run with people who live on a day to day bases and they will want what you have and will band together to steal, rob, murder or whatever it takes to supply their needs. my opinion anyway, james
Wow, if things get that bad I'll probably just be the first gazelle to be killed. Maybe my early death will help you and the rest of the herd to survive in that dystopian world that you are preparing for......
I assume that the kit you are assembling is based around a Buchanan Precision Machine Hand Press.
I use a Franklin Arsenal Electronic Scale, ($25 at Midway USA) and it is fine for the vast majority of what I need to do. IF I require more accuracy then I have mechanical scales I can use to either check the elect one or use by themselves. Any Mechanical Scale will last forever if simply taken care of. My Redding #1 was bought in 1971 and is just as accurate today as it was the day I bought it.
Here's some pics of my Portable Kit and a link to a video showing it's use. All that is needed to change calibers is Dies. It will load anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEpYQMdnxHY&t=3s
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
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