Brass pressure problems in Mauser build

[runfiverun]

you guys both/all know that wide swings are bad.
the not mentioned thing here is it can generally be fixed by a few details.
quite often the problem is the powder ignition is inconsistent.
not where the bullet comes out the barrel in a node.

[M-Tecs]

That's fine M-Tecs and you said so politely. I appreciate that. Now read that link I put up in post #92 Bryan Litz is partly responsible for input to that. Near the bottom you'll see where he himself said what I posted in post #98. I'm going to hang with him. I respect his knowledge a lot.

It's not a matter of who respects who. It's a matter of properly understanding what the variables do.

NRA match rifles tend to have 28+" barrels so the velocity used below is normal for them.

Using a 308 using Serria 175 lets look at the numbers for 2,750 fps verse 2,800 fps out to a 1,000 yards. At a 1,000 yards total wind drift for a 10 mph full value wind is 91.3 inches

At 300 yards the 50 fps difference is 0.8683" in drop or about .289 MOA
wind drift is 0.1648" difference or .054"MOA

At 500 yards the 50 fps difference is 2.739" in drop or about .547 MOA
wind drift is 0.5059"difference or 0.101 MOA

At 600 yards the 50 fps difference is 4.2224" in drop or about .703 MOA
wind drift is 0.7636" difference or .127" MOA

At 1,000 yards the 50 fps difference is 15.7287" in drop or about 1.57 MOA.
wind drift is 2.4091 difference or .24"MOA

I have loads with single digit numbers that will not hold 1 1/2 MOA group at 300 yards. I have other loads that the numbers are not very good that will hold 1/2 MOA at 300 yards.

Which load should I be using at the 200 and 300 yard line????????

Unless the ES is very large it's not a factor for most people shooting under 300 yard with a 308 class rifle.

The link you posted was written by Cal Zant and not Bryan Litz. He does quote Bryan Litz but Cal Zant WES pics are flat wrong. It appears they are showing total wind effect not the effects of something like a 50 ES will give you for drift at a 1,000 yards.

[vzerone]

It's not a matter of who respects who. It's a matter of properly understanding what the variables do.

NRA match rifles tend to have 28+" barrels so the velocity used below is normal for them.

Using a 308 using Serria 175 lets look at the numbers for 2,750 fps verse 2,800 fps out to a 1,000 yards. At a 1,000 yards total wind drift for a 10 mph full value wind is 91.3 inches

At 300 yards the 50 fps difference is 0.8683" in drop or about .289 MOA

At 500 yards the 50 fps difference is 2.739" in drop or about .547 MOA

At 600 yards the 50 fps difference is 4.2224" in drop or about .703 MOA

At 1,000 yards the 50 fps difference is 15.7287" in drop or about 1.57 MOA.

I have loads with single digit numbers that will not hold 1 1/2 MOA group at 300 yards. I have other loads that the numbers are not very good that will hold 1/2 MOA at 300 yards.

Which load should I be using at the 200 and 300 yard line????????

At those distances, for that load, the vertical dispersion isn't showing up as much as it would at much longer distances. How doe that load shoot at 600 yards? at 1000 yards? As compared to the low ES's and SD's.

We both know that velocity differences are what cause vertical dispersion. Someone once told me that you can't really tell what your load is doing until you shoot it at distance and observe what it's doing. Believe it or not that person said for him the minimum distance is 300 yards. Exactly what you are shooting that load of yours.

It's physics M-Tecs, less velocity variation is going to equal smaller groups. You can't get around that.

I see you made an edit so I'll do likewise. What you added is something I was more or less saying in other posts. That there isn't much of an improvement in group size, but it is really there, that's going to make a big difference unless said person is cutting hairs. The shooter and other negative influences are going to make the group larger rather then the velocity dispersion.

[swheeler]

M-Tecs, myself and Creighton Audette all agree, that's good enough for me! Come on guys think about it, you know the ladder test, hum could one get any larger extreme spreads

[kfd518]

Gentlemen,
I believe the important part in this conversation is the range at which THIS particular load will be fired. 300-400 yds is about the tops I trust to shoot an open sight rifle accurately enough to humanely take an animal. This may change over time but the fact is the chosen cartridge is for the most part done past 450 yds, it has already dropped 5 feet by this time with a 100 yd zero which I likely change to 200. But it is also getting a bit slow by this point for reliable expansion. This has gotten way off track. Partly by my asking further information on what was posted. It has frankly gotten to a pissing match that has been argued many times over. I appreciate the input and agree that both sides have their merit and both sides can back up the accuracy of the loads they have worked for the purposes they were worked for. Theoretically lowered ES AND SD does mean a tighter group but many targets at shorter ranges show very well that in short and mid ranges it simply is not as much of a factor as are shooting form, control and plain practice with the rifle being shot at the time.

[vzerone]

Gentlemen,
I believe the important part in this conversation is the range at which THIS particular load will be fired. 300-400 yds is about the tops I trust to shoot an open sight rifle accurately enough to humanely take an animal. This may change over time but the fact is the chosen cartridge is for the most part done past 450 yds, it has already dropped 5 feet by this time with a 100 yd zero which I likely change to 200. But it is also getting a bit slow by this point for reliable expansion. This has gotten way off track. Partly by my asking further information on what was posted. It has frankly gotten to a pissing match that has been argued many times over. I appreciate the input and agree that both sides have their merit and both sides can back up the accuracy of the loads they have worked for the purposes they were worked for. Theoretically lowered ES AND SD does mean a tighter group but many targets at shorter ranges show very well that in short and mid ranges it simply is not as much of a factor as are shooting form, control and plain practice with the rifle being shot at the time.

Yeah you're right and I apologise for my part in it. I'd be mighty proud of you if you plugged a deer at those distances you mentions and I'm hoping you do. Will watch in the future for you to shoot cast from it.

[kfd518]

I will most certainly keep folks up to date but this guns intended purpose is a ways off for this young man.

[M-Tecs]

No pissing match here. The numbers are the numbers. Easy enough for anyone to run on any of the free ballistic calculators to see what effect there ES and SD do for their situation.

Assuming very low ES and SD will produce the tights groups is a mistake. If that were the case we wouldn't need to shoot groups we could just shoot over a chrono. The vibration nod of when the bullet exists the rifle barrel is one of the more significant factors that we have control over. I have never kept track of the % but a surprising high numbers of loads with very low SD and ES don't group that well.

At longer range good ES and SD become a necessity to hold elevation but again they have to group well in addition to having good ES and SD.

[swheeler]

No pissing match here either. I always look for accuracy FIRST in any load, cast loads in the 35 Whelen are 300 yard max for me, and that would be stretching it. I was just giving a suggestion to look for accuracy first, the other banter was someone trying to put words in my mouth that were never spoken. .02

[kfd518]

No pissing match here either. I always look for accuracy FIRST in any load, cast loads in the 35 Whelen are 300 yard max for me, and that would be stretching it. I was just giving a suggestion to look for accuracy first, the other banter was someone trying to put words in my mouth that were never spoken. .02

I got to big for my britches playing with the chronograph. Was playing speed game instead of just shooting for groups...

[kfd518]

No pissing match here either. I always look for accuracy FIRST in any load, cast loads in the 35 Whelen are 300 yard max for me, and that would be stretching it. I was just giving a suggestion to look for accuracy first, the other banter was someone trying to put words in my mouth that were never spoken. .02

I got to big for my britches playing with the chronograph. Was playing speed game instead of just shooting for groups...

[tomme boy]

I shot a 11fps ES on WOLF steel ammo for 20 shots. It grouped 4.5" at 100 yds. No thanks

[Larry Gibson]

I shot a 11fps ES on WOLF steel ammo for 20 shots. It grouped 4.5" at 100 yds. No thanks

That is the crux of the matter. We can have poor quality bullets or bullets unsuited to the barrel twist with excellent ES and SDs yet give poor accuracy. Conversely we can have good or excellent bullet and "high" ES and SDs that give excellent accuracy at short range. What we don't see is the best accuracy, especially at longer ranges with good/excellent bullet in good/excellent barrels with high ES and SDs.

Using the info in M-Tec's post #102 a 1.5 moa additional drop at 1000 yards will drop you out of the 10 ring into the 9 ring on the NRA HP target. The 10 ring is 2 moa and the X ring is 1 moa. Given 1000 yard matches (Palma or NRA) are won or lost by X count these days I doubt you'll find any serious competitors using any loads with high ES or SDs because they shot well at close range or in a "ladder" test.

In context with the OPs 35 Whelen with a 300 yard max range if his ES is in the 50 to 70 fps range and the SD is in the 15 to 20 fps range given 10 shot test strings that holds accuracy out to 300 yards, he has a pretty darn good load. Of course 5 or 3 shot tests will almost always have lower ES and SDs.

[vzerone]

Larry, I think that was a dang good post! I see that you really do understand ES and SD. You even explain it in a number of different ways by juggling the bullets around. You said better what I was trying to say.

[plainsman456]

All i got to say is just go shoot that thing and work for the best groups you can get.

Mine is good for 300 yards with the 200 grain bullet as well as the 250 grain.

If i remember right the sd's and ad's were in double digits and at 200 yards shot in the 3/4 range.

I have used rL-15 before but settled on IMR-3031 and it has not let me down.
The first deer was shot at a measured 125 yards and it appeared that the deer had wheeled and run off.
It was found facing the other way and on it's belly.
The Whelen is a fine large critter getter and with some of the lighter pistol bullets can be a fun coyote rifle combo.

[KenT7021]

Back in the 80's I had problems with two rifles I had barreled.One was a .35 Whelen,the other was .280 Remington.They appeared to have excessive headspace.The headspace was held to a minimum on both rifles.They had one other thing in common.The ammo used for testing was handloaded with factory new Remington cases.The new cases were defective.The headspace of the cases was short.I believe that the Whelen cases had a recall on them some time later.