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Thread: Any reason to try pure lead/tin alloy?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    Any reason to try pure lead/tin alloy?

    So far I have been happy with straight COWWs for 38 special fodder. I plan to play with COWW+ a few % tin for gas checked rifle boolits (target) and 50/50 + tin for hunting rifle boolits. All of this seems to be what everyone else uses and I am certainly not eager to blaze a new trail unnecessarily. I know that 20:1 and similar pure lead/tin blends were used historically. Is there any advantage to the lead/tin alloys over more common lead/antimony/tin blends? My uses are mostly target, small game (with complete pass through and expansion not really desired), and a relatively small volume of rifle rounds out of 357, 44, and 35 Rem levers.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Went2kck's Avatar
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    Tin will make the mold fill out easier and a bit lighter from my experience of casting. I use WW and pure lead. and if I have some I toss in some pewter for its tin. Mostly just WW and plumbers lead for rifle bullets. for pistol It is mostly just lead.
    For what its worth theirs my 2 cents.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Went2kck View Post
    Tin will make the mold fill out easier and a bit lighter from my experience of casting. I use WW and pure lead. and if I have some I toss in some pewter for its tin. Mostly just WW and plumbers lead for rifle bullets. for pistol It is mostly just lead.
    For what its worth theirs my 2 cents.
    Interesting. So you are using mostly pure for pistol boolits? I king of feel like 12ish Brinnell COWWs is a bit much for 38 special standard pressure loads, but they seem to work.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master MyFlatline's Avatar
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    I get confused when folks want to cast different alloys for target and hunting...I prefer my alloy to be the same, then there is no question on what bullet gets loaded..On that same line..I don't vary the load either. I don't load to max but each load is huntable but not brutal to target shoot with. To me , the savings on a grain of powder is nil, shooting the same load, creates accuracy...

  5. #5
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyFlatline View Post
    I get confused when folks want to cast different alloys for target and hunting...I prefer my alloy to be the same, then there is no question on what bullet gets loaded..On that same line..I don't vary the load either. I don't load to max but each load is huntable but not brutal to target shoot with. To me , the savings on a grain of powder is nil, shooting the same load, creates accuracy...
    The only hunting loads I would bother using a different alloy on is my 35 Rem deer loads. Since I might shoot 10 of these a year, it really is a trivial amount of effort to use a slightly different alloy on these to get better performance and/or accuracy. Really, if I did not have a jones for doing things by hand I would not even bother making up cast loads for this purpose as I probably have enough factory jacketed on hand to last me the end of my days.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I use lead/tin alloys when shooting a hp or something where
    I want the boolit to stand a chance of expanding or deforming
    ww or 50/50 will do the same but I just head to that type of alloy
    Hit em'hard
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master quail4jake's Avatar
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    I use 40:1 (2.5% Sn) for low velocity handgun boolits (.32 S&W etc) and expanding musket balls (minie) and that lands at 7-8 BHN. Beyond that 20:1 (5% Sn) is 9-10 BHN and I have used it for more peppy handgun and mild rifle boolits (.32 WCF) but I have found that 2% Sn and 1% Sb makes a comparable alloy and uses less Sn. According to LASC articles the castability benefit of Sn is realized at 2% and any Sn beyond that adds hardness but is not as good as Sb for that property. Anyway FWIW when I make alloys I limit Sn to 2% and I get great results with less Sn and less age softening, hope that helps.

  8. #8
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    Here is a link to a calculator that can help with alloys

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/atta...1&d=1407425452

    And a cheaper way to test hardness
    Testing hardness with pencils
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-with-pencils
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3554910

    "Loads of Bacon has a fantastic series ongoing at present on the subject with PC'd boolits for his 38 and 44. I would highly recommend watching most, if not all the series (not complete yet). He recovers his loads from gel at different BHN, style of casts and at different speeds. The findings are fully tabulated (link in his comments). "
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biwb...2jR2KOgzC3oiVJ

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    I guess I'm lucky. My BIL delivers isotopes to the local hospitals. I buy their lead for 50 cents a pound. About 600# a year. Only 2 containers are pure lead and the others check at 10.5 BHN. They fill the mold nicely and are hard enough for my shooting. I find no need to mix and guess anymore. If you can find it, it's good stuff.
    WW

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Since I cant get isotope containers from my friends that work in Hospitals any more, I smelt up a mix of 96% lead, 1% tin for casting Fill out, and 3% Antimony for the hardness.
    It tests out to the AVERAGE of COWW that I come by from time to time.
    And it does not lead at nomal mid pressure handgun loads.
    And when I Powdercoat them, I have even less worries stepping up the speed and pressure a bit
    I got the same results from the old 10 to 1 Lead/ Tin blend, that I mix , but is not Cost effective.
    2% tin is about all you need to get good fill out.
    But trying to rely on the Tin for extra hardness is just too lop sided.
    I would love to shoot pure COWW in my handguns, but when I have to buy them at any price, and I average that against where I get the Lead for Free off my construction projects, and I buy the Antimony and Tin to make my blends, I am not only Money ahead, but have a reliable supply for a few years to come.
    Now if I used Pewter that I find at second hand stores or Yard sales, and the limited amount of Altimony ( and Arsenic ) in recycled shot, or even buying Super Hard, I can cut the cost down a bit further.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master
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    yes I consider isotope lead to be clean ww lead
    very nice to work with
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  12. #12
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    Using antimony in the mix is a way to get the 15bnh without wasting so much tin. Two things that are different.
    With antimonial lead you can quench to get even harder bullets and they will stay hard till time indefinite but are a bit brittle for rifle hunting in terms of terminal performance.
    Tin costs more and you can get 15bnh with 5% tin and the balance of lead. This is great for rifle hunting bullets because they are tough, not hard. You will get a good mushroom expansion and good penetration with good weight retention. The drawback is that tin/lead bullets get softer in time. After a few years they might be nearly as soft as pure lead. So you have to use them within a couple years of casting unless you can use softer bullets with no ill effects.

    For general handgun target loads, there is no logical reason to use tin/lead alloy unless you just happen to have a lot of tin laying around.
    I have no idea what will happen if you have some copper in the tin alloy?
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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    The big snag with tin instead of antimony is its greater cost, and its being less common in scrap alloy sources. Industries use tin when they can't get out of it. The big advantage is that tin alloys are less brittle.

    There are only limited situations in which that really matters. For most deer the typical breakaway of two or three large pieces from a wheelweight bullet is neither here nor there - unless one cuts a major blood vessel the bullet was going to miss. For heavy-boned and possibly dangerous animals pure or nearly pure lead-tin may be advisable.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    Aha! I did not know about the softening over time of lead-tin alloys. I suppose this is why Lyman #2 was developed, antimony for hardness, tin for toughness. Since the vast majority of my casting will be target, I guess I will save the tin for small runs of actual hunting bullets.

    I am dealing with mulies and maybe one day elk, so a bit heavier animals than the typical white tail.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
    Is there any advantage to the lead/tin alloys over more common lead/antimony/tin blends?

    I use 20:1 and 25:1 for casting hollow point bullets in handgun loads.

    The Tin content helps me control the expansion, something that you don't want, and gets better mold fill-out than pure lead. I'd stick with your lead/antimony/tin alloys for what you are doing!
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits." - Albert Einstein

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    Hollow Base Wad Cutters are around 15 or 20 to 1 lead tin. Less than that amount of tin in Minnie ball bullets for muzzle loader. Cowboy action shooting, I believe the Black Powder Cartridges have to be historically correct Lead/Tin alloy. Antimony wasn't used back then in the bullets such as 45 colt. Velocities are probably lower with the black powder charge instead of smokeless.

    Even as little as 1/2 percent tin really helps the mold fill out.

    Tin & a tiny amount of copper make for a tough bullet but one that is ductile not hard and brittle. Thus it's suitability for hollow point or hunting bullets that one hopes will expand, or at least not shatter on bone into lead fragments that lack the mass to continue penetrating the game animal. People use Babbitt alloy as a source of tin with a bit of copper.

    Tin works to make a harder bullet but tin is expensive. Consider the price of Lyman #2 with it's 5% of both tin and antimony at close to $3 per pound. Hardball used to be cheaper due to less tin but more antimony to get the same hardness as the Lyman #2. Not cheaper right now. But originally that was the point. Both had almost same BHN but one was a cheaper alloy that was good for casting bullets.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

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  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    These are what's left of a 265g devistator shot out of a ruger 77/44 at 1675fps. They were cast from a mix of lead flooring and 6% pewter added. The BH tested between 7-7.5. I tested them shooting through water jugs. One stopped in a milk jug after going through three small gaderade bottles. The other went through the fourth jug and found on the ground a few feet away. Destructive and not a lot of penatration. It would make a great varmint and coyote round. I bet it would really blow things apart. They were PC'd too, you can barely see the purplish blue on some of the lead. Didn't get any leading though.

    Probably would make a great self defence round to keep from going through a wall.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    I am up to my buns (so to speak) with tin as 60/40 solder scrap, plus a bunch of plumbers lead, a couple hundred pounds of magnum hard shot and a hundred pounds of Linotype in pigs so all of my bullets are tin rich and fill out nicely in the mold. But I started casting a very long time ago with my grandfather and we cast with 15% tin and the balance lead. Then moved to wheel weights and now I make my alloy (close to Lyman 2 but tin rich) from my supplies. All bullets now cast are rifle and some loads are 1800 + ft/sec without leading.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Straight clip-on weights have always served me well. Some add a little tin (1 to 2%). But, many use a lead/tin alloy and there is no reason not to experiment if you wish.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master 308Jeff's Avatar
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    While I have enough isotope and COWW to last me a good long while, I also have a lot of pure lead and pewter.

    I'm sure this has been answered already, but using pure and pewter can I get an alloy suitable for PC pistol bullets? If so, what ratio should I be looking at?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check