RepackboxRotoMetals2WidenersLee Precision
MidSouth Shooters SupplyTitan ReloadingLoad DataReloading Everything
Inline Fabrication
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: Who's right and who's wrong? Wheel gun boolit sizing...

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,513

    Who's right and who's wrong?

    I have watched several videos in the last week on boolit sizing for wheel guns. Some say to size a boolit so it will and can be firmly pushed through the cylinder with a finger for best accuracy and to keep from leading.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bdj6cldgNzw

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WCxFAjtlQPc



    Then I watch some more videos that say to size .001 over cylinder diameter or I will get leading and poor accuracy.....

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8VNjn9aIlWY

    So which way is correct???
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-21-2017 at 03:10 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    11,551
    I load most of my revolver castings at .001"+ throat diameter, some are right at throat diameter. I can't see much difference in downrange accuracy, and haven't leaded a bore for several years. FWIW.......a week ago I was firing a new-to-me S&W in 38 S&W using Lyman #358477 @ .359" (to match my Colt Police Positive's specs) over 3.0 grains of Unique. 50 rounds, zero leading, decent accuracy (the sights are a bit of a challenge for 62 year old eyes), and it ran very well. Yesterday I sat down to clean the little jewel, and also pin-gauged the throats. All 5 will pass a .361" pin, but not a .362". In short, the bullets were .002" undersize, and in this low-pressure environment I was able to get away with undersized bullets. I suspect as the pressure gradient rises the size issue becomes more critical in terms of leading prevention, but in this instance WW-metal bullets .002"- did the right things.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Near Austin
    Posts
    1,488
    In most cases, those are guidelines only and not hard requirements. Fit your boolits at a firm push fit or up to a couple of thousandths over, then shoot them and see if you like it. Adjust from there as needed.

    If you shoot long enough, you’ll find some exceptions that defy understanding. When that happens to me, I give up on understanding and shoot what works.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Hick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Winnemucca, NV
    Posts
    1,600
    Good question-- wish I knew the one and only true answer. I have a S&W Model 64 in 38 Special +p. I size all my cast bullets for it to 0.358, because that's the only sizer I have. Never checked to see what the throat is. Never had any leading.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    west central Illinois
    Posts
    7,699
    Since I have revolvers that have throats anywhere from .356 to .359 I just size everything at .358 and call that close enough. As it happens, none of my revolver lead with this sizing. All shoot accurately and function is perfect since this will fit in the chambers of all the guns.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    SE Ohio
    Posts
    2,361
    The only thing I can tell you for sure if your throats are smaller than your bore it won't make a
    difference, you are out of bussiness. If this isn't a issue you have to experiment on gun to gun
    basis to find the diameter that works best in your gun.

  7. #7
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,394
    As others have said, sometimes things just work and you don't understand why because the math certainly does not come out right, but they work well with no leading.

    It is a known law of physics that if you shove a larger boolit through a tighter throat, resistance will increase exponentially with size over throat diameter. This increased resistance against getting shoved through a smaller hole will increase pressure. That part, IS written in stone. You won't change that fact. That's the only real downside about sizing greater than throat diameter, because one way or the other, that boolit will leave the throat at throat diameter come hell or high water. This part, is also written in stone. Your cylinder will act as a multi-port sizing die.

    I can't see any logic in sizing a boolit a certain diameter, and then knowingly firing it through a smaller die (the cylinder) before it gets to the barrel.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator


    ShooterAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    12,063
    Sizing to .358 for 38SP and 357Mag works fine for me for ALL my revolvers and Contenders in that caliber. The problems for me rear their ugly heads with 44 Magnum and 45 Colt and mostly (but not always) with the Ruger revolvers I own. Love them, but I have more sizing dies for 44 Cal than any other calibers that I own. Each gun has a preference. The other problem is having molds that cast smaller than desired, but that is a whole other topic.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Kansas US of A
    Posts
    1,375
    One good thing about wheel guns, they all come with a 5-9 hole cartridge checker!
    Go .001 over on some and then figure some spring back, I would not load a whole pile of them and then only to find you have chambering issues.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    west central Illinois
    Posts
    7,699
    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    I can't see any logic in sizing a boolit a certain diameter, and then knowingly firing it through a smaller die (the cylinder) before it gets to the barrel.
    Here is my logic for that.
    I have 5 different revolvers that will shoot 38 special cartridges. The throat sizes are all over the place as I described in a previous post. Fortunately the barrels all slug the same or smaller than the cylinder throats for each individual gun. The chambers on all the guns will accept the ammunition sized for the largest throat dimension.
    Shooting this "oversize" ammo through these revolvers hasn't had any noticeable effect on the accuracy of the guns. They all shoot better than I can. None of them lead the barrel with it.
    I see no need to load 4-5 different sized boolits and try to keep them all segregated for each revolver. I can grab any of my loaded ammo and go to the range knowing I will get excellent results from whichever revolver I have with me that day.
    I have the same issue when using jacketed bullets in them. Nearly all 38 special bullets are sized .357(though many are actually .358). A couple of my revolvers have throats smaller than .357. It never seems to effect the results much if any.
    Maybe I am all wrong and so far I have just been lucky. Several years and several thousand rounds of ammo would beg to differ with that.
    By the way, thank you for the excellent job you did for me when throating my 1911 45ACP barrels. They work a treat now.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Springfield, Oregon
    Posts
    3,186
    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    As others have said, sometimes things just work and you don't understand why because the math certainly does not come out right, but they work well with no leading.

    It is a known law of physics that if you shove a larger boolit through a tighter throat, resistance will increase exponentially with size over throat diameter. This increased resistance against getting shoved through a smaller hole will increase pressure. That part, IS written in stone. You won't change that fact. That's the only real downside about sizing greater than throat diameter, because one way or the other, that boolit will leave the throat at throat diameter come hell or high water. This part, is also written in stone. Your cylinder will act as a multi-port sizing die.

    I can't see any logic in sizing a boolit a certain diameter, and then knowingly firing it through a smaller die (the cylinder) before it gets to the barrel.
    I have cylinders that need your attention.....
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    2,079
    I've shot/owned a lot of different revolvers in several different calibers over the decades. IMHO accuracy has more to do with the lead bullets design and the alloy hardness. The other thing I found is that the less you swage your bullets down when fired in the cylinders the more accurate the bullet will be.

    For what it's worth:
    Used to have to match up a cast bullets alloy & lube to get a combo that was accurate. Had a s&w 586 that would shoot bugholes with a load using 38spl brass, fed primers, 3.2gr of ww452, a plain based h&g #50 wc cast with 9bhn (+/-) alloy using a soft lube (nra 50/50) with only the bottom 2 lube grooves filled and sized to .357". Change the lube or fill the 3rd lube groove, bad things would happen. Change to a bevel based h&g #50 or sized those bullets to .358, bad news. If I used a harder alloy the groups would open up.
    For me powder coating bullets has opened a new world for me accuracy wise with revolver loads. I've owned a beater 629/44mag for decades along with several different 44cal molds. I've tested a lot of different bullet/powder/ladder tests over the decades looking for a load that would do minute of golfball/nra bullseye (1 1/2") @ 25yds. I came up with 3 bullet/powder combo's that would hold the x-ring on a nra target @ 25yds. I started pc'ing my bullets years ago and found I could use 8bhn/9bhn range scrap for anything I cast for the every revolver/semi-auto/contender bbl I own in the pistol calibers (9mm/38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp). I went back and re-visited the same bullets/loads with that beater 629. The only difference this time is that I'm using the same bullets but they are pc'd. At the end of the day I ended up with 13 loads that would hold the x-ring @ 25yds with the pc'd bullets.
    13 vs 3 is huge
    Same firearm/dies/press/bullets/powder/primers/bullet size (everything is sized to .430")etc. The difference is the lack of a specific lube/pressure combo that is needed with traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets. A soft pc'd bullets takes all of those things out of play.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Recovered 44cal bullets. Not my picture. Several years ago I had a discussion with another member on this website about round vs square lube grooves and bullet base compression. He sent me this photo showing recovered 44cal bullets. If you look close you can clearly see the bottom lube groove has different lengths/bullet base compression from the different loads/pressures that were used on them. Get the alloy/obturation/lube/pressure all correct and you have an accurate load when using traditional cast/lubed bullets. Powder coating doesn't follow the same rules.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Myself I like to have the bullets sized so they slip thru the cylinders with either no force or a minimal force at most. I've never gotten excellent accuracy with lead bullets that had to be pounded with anything to get them to go thru the holes on the cylinders on any revolver. Now the oal of the load is another thing all together. And has proven to have a lot more to do with accuracy in revolvers then the bullet/cylinder fit. I like to load the bullets so they are out into the taper of the cylinder enough so they start straight when fired. A couple plinking loads for the 38spl's/357's. As you can see the bullets are loaded long, mihec's 640's and h&g #50's.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Those long loads pictured above did these targets pictured below. They are not cherry/hand picked targets by any means. They are nothing more than the actual targets used to test those loads.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I was looking for a load for nra bullseye @50ft that could also double as a shotgun shell load for the bowling pin table. We setup 12ga shotgun shells on the bowling pin table instead of bowling pins and shot them with the same rules as bowling pins except we shoot them @50ft.

    It's more than likely it's just me. But I've found that a bullets alloy and how straight it starts when in the cylinders has more to do with accuracy them it's initial diameter compared to the cylinders. That's why the same bullseye loads tend to work in countless different firearms. How many times have you seen a post with a reloader/bullseye shooter putting out the the same xxx bullet loaded flush/xxx oal with xxx of this powder for their target load. That's telling me that that is a good pressure/bullet/lube combo for that load.

    Sorry, not really what the op asked. But at least it's an answer.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,513
    Thanks Forrest, great information, I like show and tells.. I PC my boolits as well. Id like to see some PC boolit groops either at cylinder size (yours) or .001 over besides which way is the correct to cylinder size boolits. From what I'm seeing either way works long as your bore is the same size or smaller than your cylinder measurements...but with sizing to make your boolit fit firmly into the cylinder will give you tighter groups and better accuracy.

    My pistol cylinders are all .451 and the bore .4505. I slugged the bore the other day and could push the slug through my cylinders with my finger. I will be sizing a few of my boolits at .451 with the Lee .451 sizer to see if they pass through firmly like the bore slug and test my groups and check for leading. If my groups are wide and I have leading I'll try sizing at .452 and test again. My guess .451 is going to be optimal for tighter groups and I will have no leading.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-22-2017 at 11:30 AM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    707
    If the groove diameter of the barrel is larger than the throats it won't matter what you size your bullets. Slug your barrel and then see if that slug will easily pass through your throats. If so, then you can start to experiment with bullet sizing.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    11,551
    Doug Guy--my rationale for sizing +.001" over throat diameter has to do with uncertain outcomes of bullet diameter once seating into a case mouth is accomplished. My 38 Spec/357 Magnum expander spud mics in the .3565" ballpark and .358" bullets get the call. .0015" of radial compression should not reduce diameters of WW or 92/6/2 alloy bullets, but brass age and springback variances enter the picture. The small extra diameter is a "fudge factor" I artificially introduce in the interest of leading prevention. So far--so good.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  16. #16
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Terrace, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    5,245
    There is one advantage of being, in my prime, an average shot. Discerning the effect on accuracy due to improper sizing is problematic at best. I may have slipped a bit since my days in my prime.

    There is something to herding ones efforts when it comes to reloading and reloading home cast bullets in particular. By that I mean, with three different 38spl capable guns sizing all .358 makes sense to me. No leading, suggests something is working and my groups are pretty consistent from one gun to another so I have concluded nothing I am doing (casting, sizing, lubing) is affecting the outcome of my shooting.

    I apply the same logic, if one can use that term in this context, to loading for my 9MM. Out to 15 yards all my handguns manage to shoot 2" groups off a rest. Beyond that they all manage to shoot within six to twelve inches to 20 yards. Between 15 and 20 yards the bullets have a tendency to yaw off course for reasons unknown to me as the trigonometry and the results just don't add up. Beyond 15 yards that blury thing at the end of the barrel tends to blot out the target if you get my drift.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  17. #17
    Moderator Emeritus


    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    15,832
    Warning: Information on the interwebs can often contradict itself

    I like to size my boolits to "about" .001 over throat size...sometimes it works out successfully.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    HeavyMetal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Orange county, Ca.
    Posts
    3,944
    "every gun is a rule unto itself"!

    Can't be any plainer than that, as for me when I shoot revolver, I now own three, an older pinned and counter bored Model 29 S&W nickel 8 3/8s barrel, a 1950's Colt police positive special in 38 special and a New Flattop Ruger Bisley in 44 Special.

    Each of these is loaded with cast boolits that I can just push through the cylinder throats. No leading in my Model 29 which I bought used in 1974, it and the other two revolvers shoot better than I can but I can scare the living daylights out of a Gallon Milk jug at 100 yards with the Model 29!

    My old buddy calls BS every time we go to the range cause he claims the barrel on the 29 is already half way down range, LOL!

    HM

  19. #19
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,394
    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL View Post
    Doug Guy--my rationale for sizing +.001" over throat diameter has to do with uncertain outcomes of bullet diameter once seating into a case mouth is accomplished. My 38 Spec/357 Magnum expander spud mics in the .3565" ballpark and .358" bullets get the call. .0015" of radial compression should not reduce diameters of WW or 92/6/2 alloy bullets, but brass age and springback variances enter the picture. The small extra diameter is a "fudge factor" I artificially introduce in the interest of leading prevention. So far--so good.
    Like I was saying..

    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    As others have said, sometimes things just work and you don't understand why because the math certainly does not come out right, but they work well with no leading.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    10,158
    Something the bullet sizing advocates forget is that a ternary alloy Pb-Sb-Sn bullet will not emerge from the sizing die being the exact size of the hole through which it was forced, depending upon as-cast diameter, and the amount of reduction which takes place in the die. The sizing die you have which pins out .454" exactly, will probably yield wheelweight + 2% tin bullets which emerge from the die at .455". The die makers know this, and if you take a .452" marked sizer die, the actual hole will probably be .451ish. If you run a wheellweight .456" bullet through an actual .454 pin verified sizer, bullets will likely emerge .455", push the same .456 bullets through a .452 pin verified sizer and it will probably emerge .453-.4535, which is normal.

    Binary, dilute tin-lead alloys such as 1:40 or 1:30 do not exhibit this behavior and their sized diameter will stay consistent within +/- 0.0002" over time.

    When the bullet is sized, plastic deformation takes place, and the grain structure of the bullet is disturbed and as the strain in the grain structure is relaxed overaging the bullet will change size, usually GROWING in diameter, so a wheelweight + 2% tin bullet which you size to exact throat diameter today, which can be pushed through the throats with light finger pressure, will be an interference fit six months from now.

    The mechanism we are talking about is cellular precipitation.

    THAT is why you want to size cast bullets to 0.0005 to 0.001" under throat size, not to exact fit!
    Last edited by Outpost75; 10-22-2017 at 04:26 PM.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check