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Thread: Solar Electricity

  1. #21
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    been looking at solar systems for our retirement house. our power company got a law passed that they do not have to purchase your solar electricity so the rate they pay is so low the grid tie companies won't even look at this area. I pay 95 bucks a month just for the right to have electricity, thats before I ever use one drop of power and the scum buckets even charged me 150 bucks last year on top of my normal bill because I did not use enough electricity for them. looks like it will be off grid for me even with the power line right on the road and I look forward to when I can tell the arrogant REA they can stick the poles up their you know what. my current power bill with all propane appliances runs 400 to 500 bucks a month.

  2. #22
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    what is your kilowatt per hour charge there. Ours is one of the highest ive seen and I'm all electric except of heat and like I said the furnace still needs electricity and I just looked and mine is 201 per month (that's 12 months on budget plan) Now that's with electric hot water, clothes dryer, stove, basically everything but the gas for the furnace is electric. That includes running to large freezers and a one bedroom apartment for my learning disabled so that also has its own electric hot water tank, electric stove, clothes dryer ect. Something is drastically wrong with a 4-500 dollar a month bill unless your running a restaurant out back.

    Just checked we pay just under 11cents a kilowatt hour which is higher then the average CO resident which is about 10.5. Now granted your could be slightly higher do to location. Even at 13 which would be very high you power bill shouldn't be anymore then 20percent higher then mine unless you have a HUGE house lots of kids and kids with the habit of leaving everything on and considering you say you have gas appliances its should be lower. Id call your utility and ask them to come put a recording meter on your home and it will tell you exactly when you usage goes up and down so you will know what is causing that astronomical power bill or if maybe your meter isn't calibrated right. Bad water pumps and freezers and fridges are notorious for this problem. Even with all this said how many of us pay 2-300 dollars a month for insurance (not even including what part of your salary represents health insurance. You in all reality probably shell out 500 dollars a month for insurance between health, home, and auto and basically get NOTHING FOR IT unless something bad happens maybe once every few years.

    As to the extra 150 bucks they charged you that is no doubt a power supply charge. It cost money to build lines. If they spent say 20k to put a line to your home and you don't use a certain amount of electricity they add a surcharge so that its not someone on the other side of town who has to pay more to offset the cost of building that line to your home. They figure an average power supply rate and it is added to the kilowatt hour charge everyone pays. At a certain level some have to pay more to pay there fair share of the costs and some get refunds. I just looked on my bill and I got a wopping $2.50 refund credited to this months bill. I am somewhat blown away though that if your bill is actually even 300 dollars a month you have to pay in anything. Only exception is sometimes when a line extension is built for one or two people that costs a lot of money they are charged for its construction and rather then hitting your for 10 grand up front to build the line you pay over say a 5 year period on your bill. If your avatar is correct and you live on a ranch chances are theres lots of line that had to be built and maintained for a single customer. Even if you bought your home and the owner before you made this contract you are still responsible for it. As I said anything else would require everyone to pay more for your convenience. bottom line is ive been around the power utility world all my life and if your paying that much anywhere theres a reason and you should contact your power company and nicely as for an explanation why and for them to set up a recording meter so that you can see whats really going on in your home and what is using the power.
    Quote Originally Posted by rancher1913 View Post
    been looking at solar systems for our retirement house. our power company got a law passed that they do not have to purchase your solar electricity so the rate they pay is so low the grid tie companies won't even look at this area. I pay 95 bucks a month just for the right to have electricity, thats before I ever use one drop of power and the scum buckets even charged me 150 bucks last year on top of my normal bill because I did not use enough electricity for them. looks like it will be off grid for me even with the power line right on the road and I look forward to when I can tell the arrogant REA they can stick the poles up their you know what. my current power bill with all propane appliances runs 400 to 500 bucks a month.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-23-2017 at 10:47 AM.

  3. #23
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    Wait until you find out zoning regulations force you to connect to utilities... I know FL does that...

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I used to cut and split wood, enough that it heated my home and water requirements for the year. Now I would rather just adjust the thermostat and open the facet with the expatation of it being warm. I use/save as much power as needed, because the bargain I get vs a chain saw and splitting wedges doesn't justify the effort.
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  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    I know several people went solar and Everyone Regreted it. No money saved. Just expensive. The power co. sure Pays You but the cost Of electric is small If you do not Count the so delivery Charge. The delivery Is Generally 5 to 10 Times your Usage which is non Regulated
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  6. #26
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    I checked into solar 4 years ago. It was a 20 year payback and it made no sense to me. Maybe costs have come down....or I maybe I was dealing with a rip off company.

    Solar cells do deteriorate over time, so factor that into your numbers.

    My cost in northern Michigan is about $.10/kwhr. Not cheap but not too bad either. There will be a point where the cost of solar comes down and electricity gets ever more expensive. If I cannot get an eight year payback, I would not do it. Plus, I can never be totally off the grid. We can get quite a bit of snow and I doubt solar works well with the panels covered.
    Don Verna


  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'm teaching a class now about solar, learning as I go. Panels degrade at about 1% per year so one test question asks how much is lost after 30 years and it is 26% of initial cap. Also be aware that if your system is tied into the grid if the grid goes down so will your inverter. If you want to go totally off grid you will need storage batteries, very expensive, with a microinverter to keep your main inverter synced. This can also work for a grid system just be sure that you have a auto disconnect going to the grid. Otherwise you'll try to power the entire grid. The other posts have a lot of good information in them also.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    My buddy lived far enough away from the nearest power and in a very rocky area where plowing cable would be expensive. he decided to go with a combo or wind and solar. I forget now what it all cost but at the time I figured it would take 20 years to even break even at the rate I was paying and our electric is high in this area. I think the time will come when this technology is more efficient and cost effective but its not here yet. Sad thing for him too is he about drained his bank account doing it and died 5 years later of cancer. I'm sure whoever buys the house that was left to his 14 year old kid will thank him though. reason they probably spec. a smaller invertor is energy loss. they probably look at your average consumption figuring if you went over average and into peak useage the cost of the bigger invertor and the increased energy loss wouldn't justify putting something in that really isn't cost effective.
    Lloyd is totally correct , it's not cost effective ...yet. In Louisiana there was a State and Federal subsidy to help homeowners pay for panels and installation....during those years no advancements were made in making the system cost effective, panels and installation were high , government footed most of the cost....no incentive to make it cheaper , Then the subsidies stopped and overnight that industry evaporated. Without a government subsidy, you can't generate enough electricity to pay for the solar equipment and maintenance of the system. The panels have to be cleaned regularly. It really isn't cost effective but the subsidies have ended so if the companies want to survive they will now have to improve the panels electrical output and make them much cheaper. Before going to far into debt , check out what they are telling you...people will lie to make a buck.
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  9. #29
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    I gave a ham radio friend a 50 year old solar panel that was still producing 80% of the original rating. Not bad at all really and you design with that 20% loss in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I checked into solar 4 years ago. It was a 20 year payback and it made no sense to me. Maybe costs have come down....or I maybe I was dealing with a rip off company.

    Solar cells do deteriorate over time, so factor that into your numbers.

    My cost in northern Michigan is about $.10/kwhr. Not cheap but not too bad either. There will be a point where the cost of solar comes down and electricity gets ever more expensive. If I cannot get an eight year payback, I would not do it. Plus, I can never be totally off the grid. We can get quite a bit of snow and I doubt solar works well with the panels covered.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    There's no problem. Your "8.7 KW" installation is about capacity. That is, in theory, at peak efficiency, which begins degrading the minute the installation is complete, it could generate 8.7KW. It will never generate anything like 8.7 KW. Probable peak generation is in the 6 KW realm, so your inverter has plenty of extra capacity.

    A "thank you" would have been nice, considering my tax dollars are subsidizing your solar panel installation. But then, I suppose neither Tom Steyer, nor Mike Bloomberg, nor Elon Musk, nor any other Big Dem Donor beneficiaries of the @ $6 billion a year in federal solar subsidies alone, nor for that matter the Chinese government, where more than 98% of solar panels installed in this country are made, have thanked you for their cut.

  11. #31
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    I was talking to my son last night about power rates. He lives in Honolulu. My power is 9.5 cents per kilowatt hour. He pays 37 cents. Most power in Honolulu is generated by diesel or gasoline generators. They have a lot of people with solar. Then the government cut off the subsidies for the solar. Now they don't get much for the extra power. Hawaii has tried wind farms in the past to generate power. So far all of them have gone belly up. They are talking of doing some again. Even talking about off shore wind farms. The problem is maintenance. I don't know much about solar but if I didn't get a fairly quick payoff of equipment I don't think I would do it unless that was my only option.

  12. #32
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    Never, ever, ever seen solar work out in a situation like this. I'd have to see the results at the end of the payoff to actually believe it. I just don't believe their ROI calculations...I'm certainly not saying you are lying but the folks selling this stuff are mighty "creative".

  13. #33
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    Where you live and how you live there is very much your own business, so I offer the following with some hesitation, and full disclosure that I probably know less about powering a household than any who have chimed in. That said, perhaps your goal should be to assure that you always have energy of some type available, rather than just lowering the cost of a single source.

    In the process of planning my own "get outta dodge" dwelling, I decided that some hybrid system of power generation would be required (this was for western Oklahoma). Solar panels (plenty of sunshine there) would be a part of it, as would a wind generator (puh-LENTY of wind there), a gas or diesel generator, and electric from the grid, plus a large propane tank would assure that I always have power of SOME sort, at any time. Installation of a gas and an electric system would be a significant cost factor but my dwelling, as designed, would be comparatively small. If your dwelling is somewhat larger, then perhaps what I'M suggesting would be cost-prohibitive.

    Just tossing it out there, for you to consider.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
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  14. #34
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    Let us not forget vampire devices. Chargers and digital TV's or Internet modems or routers that are always drawing a little power. With campers or cabins that use solar to replenish the house battery the ability of solar panels to "keep up" with demand is to a great extent influenced by planning on the load side. The LED lights, energy efficient vent or furnace fan, reduced use or downsizing device, low water use shower heads with on/off (reduce water pump use) and stuff like not leaving a laptop or phone plugged in to a charger. All these choices lead to a usage load that the solar can keep up with.

    I recall a rule of thumb for calculation of daily amp output was 50% output for 4 hours and 100% output for 4 hours. One probably doesn't get 100% for 4 hours but for part of the other 4 hours one does better than 50% so it tends to be pretty close to the actual amp output. Then it is just math how many amps do my devices times hours used draw. House batteries storage is in amp hours so I think of it that way but watts per device times amount of time device is used tells you can solar meet the demand. Toaster draws a lot but only for a few minutes TV and satellite box draws less but runs for hours.

    I don't know if you have planned for some storage capacity in your house but that can be mighty useful during a power outage. However it may not be price competitive with a generator and fuel, depends on how often and how long you lose power for. Even a small fan to move heat from wood burner around or charge batteries for the LED lantern can make a couple days without power easier.
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  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    Echo - Our place is about 15 miles south of Tucson and we are on Tucson Electric which I assume you are as well. Our house iis 10 years old and built to be energy efficient. Our house is about 1,400 square feet - single story - stucco with cement tile roof. Mine you, we are "snow birds" - we keep the air conditioning at about 80 degrees when we are gone but our highest bill was in August (we weren't here) and that was $100.

    I'm just curious -how big of a house and how old is yours? One or two story? What you state for a month average seems high to me even if you are year round resident - or perhaps I am just not burning that much electricity. I have heard others who have moved here about how high the electrical bill is - I don't know where many of them have moved from but I can tell you we pay much more for electricity back in Michigan than we do here.

    We are in a 55 plus community and several her have added solar to their roofs but I have never heard just who much they have saved or the pay off on it. We certainly have enough sunlight here to power a system though! LOL

    It's just curiosity on my part and no criticism intended - I'm just wondering how old your house is and how energy efficient it is as I would imagine that much of your electrical usage is going towards AC? While the solar may very well be a good move for you, is there any way to make you house mor energy efficient n the process with better insulation, windows, etc. to save on calling/heating when necessary?

    We are retired and there is just the two of us which makes a big difference - and we are always conscience about not "wasting" energy but we do keep the house AC running as needed as neither of us like a hot house. Your situation may very well be different - especially if you have a family, kids, etc. which adds to the electricity usage for sure - i.e. more shows, more washing during the week, etc. which can eat up electricity and gas in a hurry.

    Good luck with your solar and I hope you'll post how it all works out.

  16. #36
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    If you do most of the solar yourself(and it isn't hard if you can do anything mechanical) and have an electrician do just the wiring part solar breakeven can be 7-8 years or less. My system with batteries paid for itself in 5 and it isn't even grid tied. The panels plug into each other so that is easy to do, a junction box with disconnect the panels go to is also pretty easy(remember, this is DC so just 2 wires + and - ). Only thing is do the final connection in the box after dark unless you enjoy playing with high voltage DC! My strings of panels are 87 volts dc in full sun and 15 amps total... it hurts if you brush across it! Get it across both hands and it is lethal!

  17. #37
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    is that break even compared to buying power? Or is it compared to running a generator? I worked for the power company and have a pretty good handle on these price comparisons because we were questioned constantly. A generator is about the worse case senerio. theres some fuel cell technology generators that are closing the gap but like solar they still aren't cost effective unless you have no grid power available. Bottom line is its going to take the average person with the average sized home switching to alternative power (be it solar, wind, or both) an average of about 20 years to get to the break even point with todays efficiency's and costs and even then you will have weeks without wind and days without enough sun to keep charged and about still will need a generator and that's added cost that few talk about.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaryB View Post
    If you do most of the solar yourself(and it isn't hard if you can do anything mechanical) and have an electrician do just the wiring part solar breakeven can be 7-8 years or less. My system with batteries paid for itself in 5 and it isn't even grid tied. The panels plug into each other so that is easy to do, a junction box with disconnect the panels go to is also pretty easy(remember, this is DC so just 2 wires + and - ). Only thing is do the final connection in the box after dark unless you enjoy playing with high voltage DC! My strings of panels are 87 volts dc in full sun and 15 amps total... it hurts if you brush across it! Get it across both hands and it is lethal!

  18. #38
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    just to reiterate on how dependent we are on power and what that 200 bucks a month buys you. We just had the worse wind storm ive seen up here and I worked as an electrical lineman and have seen some bad ones. Our power was out for 37 hours. Wasn't to bad for me because I'm not stupid enough to rely on just one source of power and have a generator that will run my house but I had 3 neighbors come by for coffee (because they couldn't make any) and none of them had ever been out that long and the joke was that if it would have lasted another couple hours they would have probably killed there wives. Sitting in the dark with a few battery lights with nothing to do but talk to each other. No water pressure to flush the toilets, no showers, no tv, no computer or internet, no stove or microwave to cook supper and no resteraunts open within 25 miles due to the outages, freezers and the food in them all thawed out, no heat and it was down below 50 degrees at night. All of them have a new appreciation of what there electric bill buys them and all three are going today to buy a generator. that's if they can even find one around here because id bet today there isn't one on a shelf in any store in the area. I chuckle at people that balk about a 200 dollar power bill but will pay 200 dollars a month for a smart phone and contract or a 150 bucks a month for cable tv. Or someone like me that doesn't bat an eyelash at spending a couple hundred bucks a month on guns and loading supplys. Or a 200 dollar a month payment of an atv, motorcycle or some other toy. Truth be told you get more for that 200 dollar a month electric bill then you do for about any outlay of money you make. IF you doubt it ill make you this challenge. Shut your breaker off for a week and see for yourself. Sure a few of you can do it but 99 percent of us would be lost without it.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-26-2017 at 06:58 AM.

  19. #39
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    My highest electric bills are in the summer and I've never had one top $130.00 The what I consider lower bills I can atribute to going to LED lights everywhere in the house that the lights are used quite a bit. Common sense when using the dishwasher and other units that take a considerable anount of electricity and produce heat need to be considered. In other words use the electric dryer at a time of day where the heat from it con't contribute to higher room temps and the same goes for the dishwasher.

    Would you mind telling us if your home in AZ is a two story? Type of insulation, amount of insulation, type of windows and so forth. I've seen people tie up a goodly amount of money in a home with bad windows, bad insulation or lack of. Everything comes into play.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    just to reiterate on how dependent we are on power and what that 200 bucks a month buys you. We just had the worse wind storm ive seen up here and I worked as an electrical lineman and have seen some bad ones. Our power was out for 37 hours. Wasn't to bad for me because I'm not stupid enough to rely on just one source of power and have a generator that will run my house but I had 3 neighbors come by for coffee (because they couldn't make any) and none of them had ever been out that long and the joke was that if it would have lasted another couple hours they would have probably killed there wives. Sitting in the dark with a few battery lights with nothing to do but talk to each other. No water pressure to flush the toilets, no showers, no tv, no computer or internet, no stove or microwave to cook supper and no resteraunts open within 25 miles due to the outages, freezers and the food in them all thawed out, no heat and it was down below 50 degrees at night. All of them have a new appreciation of what there electric bill buys them and all three are going today to buy a generator. that's if they can even find one around here because id bet today there isn't one on a shelf in any store in the area. I chuckle at people that balk about a 200 dollar power bill but will pay 200 dollars a month for a smart phone and contract or a 150 bucks a month for cable tv. Or someone like me that doesn't bat an eyelash at spending a couple hundred bucks a month on guns and loading supplys. Or a 200 dollar a month payment of an atv, motorcycle or some other toy. Truth be told you get more for that 200 dollar a month electric bill then you do for about any outlay of money you make. IF you doubt it ill make you this challenge. Shut your breaker off for a week and see for yourself. Sure a few of you can do it but 99 percent of us would be lost without it.
    All are great points.

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