Solar Electricity

[scattershot]

Second the LED lights. That has saved us a bundle since we installed them.

[Lloyd Smale]

Yup ive seen people in the south that don't think they need insulation because it doesn't get cold! It takes as much energy to cool a house down there as it does heat one here. I do agree with the led bulb changes and another thing that will knock your electric bill down considerably is a demand hot water heater (something I need to do). Put a bigger bladder on your water pump or even put two of them on so it runs less often. if you have two freezers when theres room combine the food into one and shut the other off. A full freezer will take less power to keep cold then a half full one. Plus your shutting one off. If you have room buy a chest freezer instead of an upright. Every time you open the door on an up right the cold air comes falling out of it. Another easy way to save is to make large meals so that you can keep left overs for the next meal. It takes less power to warm up leftovers then cook a meal. How many thaw food and meat in the microwave? A lb of burger or steak will thaw in an hour or so in cold water in your sink. Add to that unplug ANYTHING that isn't being used. How many things in your house have a digital display or a little red light on 24/7. Use your phone as a phone and never mind face book and it will need to be charged about a third as often. My wife drives me nuts. She takes 20 minute showers, has to rinse dishes in hot water and leaves it run while she does them. Leaves the computer on all night (heck how many here leave a computer on all day long) If shes in the kitchen cooking she has every light in the kitchen on. ect ect. Little common sense goes along ways toward cheaper power.

My highest electric bills are in the summer and I've never had one top $130.00 The what I consider lower bills I can atribute to going to LED lights everywhere in the house that the lights are used quite a bit. Common sense when using the dishwasher and other units that take a considerable anount of electricity and produce heat need to be considered. In other words use the electric dryer at a time of day where the heat from it con't contribute to higher room temps and the same goes for the dishwasher.

Would you mind telling us if your home in AZ is a two story? Type of insulation, amount of insulation, type of windows and so forth. I've seen people tie up a goodly amount of money in a home with bad windows, bad insulation or lack of. Everything comes into play.

[RED BEAR]

Thought my electric bill was cheap until I read others post. My bill rarely goes over $300 per month but the lowest bill I ever had in my life was still $130 per month. But still prefer to flip a switch and have power. As said before looked in to solar before and it would take 20 to 30 years to break even. Panels never put out what they tell you and count last like they say batteries have the same problem. And if you want power on cloudy day you need them. Never take the word of anyone selling anything always do your own research. And take with a grain of salt the glowing reviews and the horrible ones the truth is somewhere in the middle. Beware of Info from someone with a stake in what ever you are doing. Like I say my bill looks pretty high compared to others but after thinking it over its my fault. House is 60+ years old and larger than !e and my better half need even though granddaughter now lives with us. Run pool filter in summer hot tub in winter. Have 3 large aquariums. Have never seen granddaughter turn off anything. All appliances are energy efficient . others talk about power being off for hours try 14 days. Every 2 to 3 years on average lose power for multiple days. The street our house is on is on a line by its self so during outages it is usually the last to get on again. There are a lot more houses on street and think they upgraded the system because the outages are less often now. Anyway starting to ramble on. I hope this works out for you and would like to know how it goes.

[MUSTANG]

Red Bear:

You must live near the Farm my wife had years ago in the Appomatax area. Has to be near it because of the stories she tells of the power going off and staying off for weeks at a time.

[MaryB]

Compared to buying but remember, I had zero labor cost because I can do this myself(electronics tech for 39+ years now).

And panel price are down to 60 cents a watt so you can do a system pretty cheap if you do a lot of the mechanical work yourself if doing electrical is not in your toolbox. Mounting the panel frames, getting the panels mounted, mount all the charge controllers/inverters and have an electrician come in and do the final bits. Size it so you run close to what you use in 24 hours so no worries about power company payback. You use what you produce offsetting any electric bill.

Battery systems add cost, my 24 volt 928 amp hour battery bank of 16 batteries ran $2k. But I see 16+ power outages a year, some last 24+ hours so having heat when it is -20 without having to try and start the portable generator is a huge plus. The pellet/corn stove is 120/12 volt, I run it off the 24 to 12 volt converter that powers my ham radio gear if grid power fails. Plus I run 2 chest freezers and chest freezer converted to a fridge, TV, computers off the battery bank.

is that break even compared to buying power? Or is it compared to running a generator? I worked for the power company and have a pretty good handle on these price comparisons because we were questioned constantly. A generator is about the worse case senerio. theres some fuel cell technology generators that are closing the gap but like solar they still aren't cost effective unless you have no grid power available. Bottom line is its going to take the average person with the average sized home switching to alternative power (be it solar, wind, or both) an average of about 20 years to get to the break even point with todays efficiency's and costs and even then you will have weeks without wind and days without enough sun to keep charged and about still will need a generator and that's added cost that few talk about.

[MUSTANG]

MaryB:

What do you think the life of your batteries will be? Replacement down stream (before System Payoff occurs) drives a longer payback period than most people compute; one of the reasons why I decided not to put PV into the house in Moapa despite the long sunny days for collecting photons most of the year.

[yeahbub]

A co-worker got set up with solar panels at his house as a personal experiment. A very handy fellow he is. One thing he mentioned that cooled my zeal for the idea was the difference in price between what you pay when YOU buy a KWH and the money you get when THEY buy a KWH from you. Big difference. They only pay what a KWH costs them to produce and it isn't much. In Ohio, it takes years to get the investment back by selling power back to the utility. I don't want to rain on your parade, though. This fellow set up a couple of pallets of forklift batteries from an outfit our employer gets them from at the company discount, bought some big inverters to provide 120V/60hz and can run his lights for a few days before he needs some sunlight or has to hook up the generator to recharge them. Most power outages aren't that long, so he figures he's covered. I think he's right, having a source of power and having your own power storage capability enables your system to provide power even when the sun doesn't shine. Being able to operate independent of the grid when necessary without having a noisy generator chattering is a big plus in my book. A running generator is a big "please come steal me" call in some places, as reported after Katrina. It's better if the system is silent.

[shdwlkr]

solar electricity
some things to think about first is of course cost, amount of electric you use or need, how often do you lose power and yes pay back.
solar panels are a lot cheaper than they used to be and that is a good thing
you will need an inverter to take dc current from panels to ac that electric company supplies to your house and get a good one that you can disconnect from the grid if power failure and still have electric in your house during daylight hours if you don't have batteries. Yes batteries are expensive depending on how big a battery backup you need. think $2000-10000. Life of the batteries depends on how many discharges they can handle and how far down they discharge even.
Location of your home and even how the roof faces. What I mean by this is the more south or even south east or west your roof is the more hours of electric production you can get. How many cloudy days you get in a year or no sun days can mean the difference between a solar system that earns its keep or one that is more of a interesting idea.
Yes I am learning more and more about solar power and hope to begin my journey down the solar highway this fall or next spring. I already know that when I get the system done I will be using a lot more electric then I do now because I will have the electric to use at a price that is good for me. I am not really looking at payback more like we do with casting our own bullets and making our own cartridges, it is interesting, provides enjoyment and peace of mind that I can do something for myself and get a reward.
Lastly it is not cheap to get into solar electric, neither is getting into reloading anymore but the enjoyment of being able to do for yourself is in it self a great satisfaction and that is how I look at solar power. How long will it take me to get it totally done I have no idea and really don't care as long as I enjoy the journey, the learning, the fact that I am working to be independent if needed of the electric grid I am happy.
My .03 cents on the subject of solar power YMMV

[Hogtamer]

Great thread, thanks guys.

[Handloader109]

My local coop just installed about 5 acres of solar. They say it will power about a thousand homes. Offering the members the opportunity to purchase a portion of the field. Will give you a discounted off of your bill for 20 years. I figured it was about a 4 or 5 percent return unless power rates go way up.

[MaryB]

Typical for these is 7-10 years, mine are at 7 and just showing some signs of capacity loss, higher quality solar batteries can last 20 years+. So while my system has paid for itself i am looking at investing another $2k in the next 2-3 years probably, but payback on that will be short, under 2 years. Solar panels have a 20 year warranty for 80% capacity, I have excess capacity, my charge controllers actually throw away some energy around noon right now but in 10 years it will be balanced...

Knowing how this all works and being able to do my own install really saves money. And in 3 years the price of lithium batteries may be down to lead acid and I will switch chemistries... lighter, smaller, much longer life...

MaryB:

What do you think the life of your batteries will be? Replacement down stream (before System Payoff occurs) drives a longer payback period than most people compute; one of the reasons why I decided not to put PV into the house in Moapa despite the long sunny days for collecting photons most of the year.

[MaryB]

Some examples

Solar panel 230 watt, 46 cents per watt, $105 per panel. 20 panels will power many homes especially if you start with energy saving BEFORE buying any panels. So $2,100 for panels
Inverter, 4,500 watts 48 volt input for on/off grid use 2,600
MPPT Charge controller $673
Batteries 6 volt 554 amp hour $343 each for a 48 volt bank you need 8 so $2744

Wiring, racking for the panels, rack for the batteries another $2k

So approximately $10k for an on/off grid system that will give you 6-12 hours for critical loads during power outages. Batteries I quoted are long life solar batteries and not the cheap golf cart batteries I am using. For longer backup power you add more batteries! Double the bank would be good for an average house where kids may not understand conservation.

Lifespan is a minimum 20 years for the system. if your bill is $200 a month payback would be ~ 4-7 years(depends on state...), very doable and you would either cut your bill by your production each month or get paid a tiny bit if your state allows that if you produce a surplus each month.

[popper]

Anyone count in the storm damage & insurance costs?

[charles1990]

The only winners in wind and solar are the people who make and sell it. W/O our taxes subsidizing it it would be as dead as the Dodo.

Tesla has NEVER made a dime. Wind farms slaughter birds. Building solar panels and their batteries creates more pollution than a natural Gas power plant would.

A scam pushed by Democrats and suckers.

[MT Gianni]

It was a toss up for me. I have a new house, all LED lighting elec, water heater and pump, freezer and refrigerator. The rest is LP. My elec bill rund $75-90 a month. I have never needed ac in the house. Cost to run Electric service 275 yards, install a transformer, junction box where the old transformer was and 200 ft of service wire all buried was $9500. That was from my employer, no savings given.

[Multigunner]

Too many walnut trees around here to put solar panels anywhere near my house.
The other morning a strong wind blew up and walnuts were hitting the ground like machine gun fire. A storm window I had placed against the fence in the back yard while refurbishing the window frame caught two or more falling walnuts that smashed out the glass.
The walnuts can be found every where after a storm, even a roof top installation wouldn't be safe.

I have considered constructing a simple solar preheater for my water heater. The inlet running through a rack of black PVC tubing mounted on the roof before running to the water heater.
It could also act as fire suppression if a house fire burned through the roof mounted tubing. It would have to be bypassed in the winter of course.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya but youd have to factor in that it may be paid off in 7 years but you also durning that time with your system have to probably buy a new set of batterys 3 times (that's 10k) also replace things that do fail ($?) in that 20 years and at the end start all over with new panels ect and if I'm reading you right that's just to supply "critical load" 6-12 hours in an outage. So basically does what my 400 dollar 5k generator does in an outage. It runs on gas or propane and is hooked to my 500lb hog and could run steady for about any length of electrical outage. It will run my house and my sons apartment without having to shut off anything that includes two freezers and two hot water tanks and the water pump. granted I understand yours also supplys at least a portion of your electricity day to day. I sure wouldn't want to try to live off my generator alone. But for even a once or twice a year outage it works just fine and I can buy propane enough for years for a grand to run it. But a normal 3 bedroom home with 3 kids and a dog that's electric use was similar to the average on grid home would take a lot more of an outlay in cash then what you did. Maybe twice that. I have no doubt it works for some that are willing to put up with sacrifices in the way they use power but most aren't these days. If money was no object id have solar, wind, a automatic diesel generator and still be connected to the grid. But most are building for day to day living not survival and most aren't those people on those shows in Alaska that want to be self sufficient. Bottom line is the cheapest way is still the grid if you can get hooked up. Add 500 bucks for a generator and spend a grand on some propane to keep in reserve for outages if they concern you. Even a 500 dollar generator and a couple 5 gallon cans of gas will get you through 99 percent of outages. If it weren't the cheapest route power companys would either be out of business or lowering there rates to compete. But right now they don't have the need to do either. There still constructing even coal fired plants every day in this country. Some day the technology will no doubt be there. that is if the big power corporations don't snuff it. But it probably wont be in my lifetime.

Some examples

Solar panel 230 watt, 46 cents per watt, $105 per panel. 20 panels will power many homes especially if you start with energy saving BEFORE buying any panels. So $2,100 for panels
Inverter, 4,500 watts 48 volt input for on/off grid use 2,600
MPPT Charge controller $673
Batteries 6 volt 554 amp hour $343 each for a 48 volt bank you need 8 so $2744

Wiring, racking for the panels, rack for the batteries another $2k

So approximately $10k for an on/off grid system that will give you 6-12 hours for critical loads during power outages. Batteries I quoted are long life solar batteries and not the cheap golf cart batteries I am using. For longer backup power you add more batteries! Double the bank would be good for an average house where kids may not understand conservation.

Lifespan is a minimum 20 years for the system. if your bill is $200 a month payback would be ~ 4-7 years(depends on state...), very doable and you would either cut your bill by your production each month or get paid a tiny bit if your state allows that if you produce a surplus each month.

[Lloyd Smale]

When mine was installed it was free. The power company I work for used to give free hookup to new customers as long as it didn't take more then a 3 pole extension and even then the first 3 poles, wire, transformer and service were free. Not any more though. Today like you had to, they charge for everything right down to the nuts and bolts. Change happened about 10 years ago. Like I said in a previous post to many customers (that already got theres for free) complained that they had to absorb the cost of building a line to a new customer. Same used to be for gas and phone company's but today you pay for everything when putting them in too. I have propane and am the only one on the road (I'm on the end of the road) that doesn't have natural gas. The main ends about a 150 feet from my house. It would have to be extended a 100 feet and a service line put in and a meter. they want 7.5 k to do it plus the price of converting all my propane stuff to natural gas. I can buy LOTS of propane for 7k! It would probably pay me to do it if I looked at a 20 year picture considering the difference I price per gallon but I wont probably be around that long. My budget for propane comes to about 150 a month most years and that's to heat my house, my shop and my kids apartment. I sure couldn't even buy firewood to do it all much cheaper and that doesn't even factor in the cost of a boiler big enough to heat them all and my time and energy. yes its cool to be able to say you don't need anyone and can do it all yourself but a lot of us are getting older and cutting wood and even maintaining systems like solar and wind are getting to the point wed have to hire it done anyway and doesn't that put you right back relying on someone else. Theres may days anymore where my back wouldn't even let me go out and fill a wood boiler twice a day.

It was a toss up for me. I have a new house, all LED lighting elec, water heater and pump, freezer and refrigerator. The rest is LP. My elec bill rund $75-90 a month. I have never needed ac in the house. Cost to run Electric service 275 yards, install a transformer, junction box where the old transformer was and 200 ft of service wire all buried was $9500. That was from my employer, no savings given.

[6bg6ga]

Sorry, the math still doesn't add up for me to consider Solar or Wind energy. You have the initial cost of the panels or the genertor, the inverter, and the batterys. You have wear and tear on panels or the generator. Panels can be damaged and so can wind power generators. You have constant maintenance on batterys and inverters and generators. The pay back isn't going to be there for a long long time. The power companies sure they have to purchase the energy that is excess but they don't pay the rate your paying or the rate it actually cost them to produce the power you pay for they pay far less and make money on your investment. Mary, you seem to be proud of being an electronics tech and its a decent job but nothing special I am one also and I know that with all that knowledge we have its still going to cost us for a cup of coffee. To be blunt its child's play to wire up a elementry little solar charging system but you still have to pay an electricion when it comes to hooking to the grid and the same goes with wind power.

Its more of a scam than anything else. How do I know this? Back in the early 80's I worked part time my off hours working with a friend selling wind power genertors and inverters. Mega profit mega costs and solar panels at that time were extremely expensive for what you got. Yes, sure people like Mary and myself and some others on this board are capable of repairing their inverters provided the manufacturer hasn't used house part numbers and we are able to secure replacement for the parts that seem to burn out in those inverters.

Payback... the reality of it is the payback is long and hard coming. The reason and the most overlooked is the maintenance of the system the batterys, the inverters, panels, and generators parts brushes and such.

As mentioned for most the idea of a efficient generator as a back up is probably the best and least expensive option and certainly one to consider in my humble opinion.

[mold maker]

Whether solar and/or wind are viable sources of power is determined by need. Our grandparents lived without power that didn't involve fire. We are tied to the power grid by convenience, not need. Our dependence on electricity is created by the availability of power, and what it does to make life more comfortable, not need
My personal investigation and the experiences of others, make me believe that unless there is no alternative, it's not practical.
However, if you don't mind the original financial outlay, it can be a break-even proposition after 7-13 years if no major break down is encountered.
If temporary replacement in a storm situation is your aim, a generator may be a cheaper alternative.