StainLess Steel MediaTitan ReloadingRotoMetals2Inline Fabrication
Lee PrecisionGraf & SonsADvertise here

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: Cracked stock

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Fairplay, MD (Western Maryland
    Posts
    53

    Cracked stock

    I was looking at a gun, obvious 1800 style long rifle, but has a cap lock and is not a flinter, my only disappointment. Built like a Lancaster style with the long patch box on the stock. The grip is broke clean through, plus the butt of the stock is delmainated in a few places inline with the stock under the butt plate. Grown ring separation and I am assuming someone let that part get wet or something.

    Can this be fixed, or is it just a parts gun for a new stock? If I gave it a new stock I am assuming it high devalues the gun.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Broken stock.JPG 
Views:	52 
Size:	24.3 KB 
ID:	206157

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,396
    Looks like its been made non-function /cut on purpose to me?
    "JUST A OLD DEPLORABLE THAT'S IRREDEEMABLE."

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    502
    Unless the stock condition is from a documented story, it is a parts gun anyway. Eg, if you can show the stock was broken in hand-to-hand combat in some battle then it might be worth a bit.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    MI (summer) - AZ (winter)
    Posts
    2,895
    Better pictures and one of the entire gun and closeups of the butt stock, lock area , frowned, etc. along with what you are referring to as "delaminating"? would be helpful. As far as growth rings, I doubt that the wrist is broken like that (and it could be cut for some reason - can't tell from photo) from "growth rings". Any good stock maker would work with the grain to insure that the wrist area has the grain running correctly since the wrist is the weakest portion of the stock. And, since it is a full stock (I'm assuming), it would have to be one heck of a larger tree to get a blank with the growth rings running perpendicular to the wrist.

    The other day, there was one or two rifles on fleabay that were "cut" - I presume so the seller could sell hem as "parts" and not rifles. This does't happen to be one of those does it?

    As far as "repair" - I have done many repairs over the years to broken stocks - broken wrists - etc. it is not "impossible" but you need to have the ability to look at the break and determine the best method to fix. Just from your photo, I would take a guess that it is repairable as there appears the be enough wood behind the lock and tang area to possible "dowel" it and use epoxy to bond the repair but you would have to make a special jig for clamping it. In places such as along barrel channel, around locks, broken toes, etc, it is possible to "graft" repairs in and match it as close as possible.

    I can't tell from your photo if this is an "original" or is it an older custom built gun? If it were an original, then I would say that it would be worth trying to restore - if not - then I'd look at it as a "re-stocking" project.

    Below is a photo of an example of what can be done to repair a stock to save it This is on a pre-carved "reject" that I bought years ago for a Bedford Rifle. I normally like to start with a rough stock blank but I couldn't pass this one up as it was only $20 when I got it. When reshaped, a "void" int he wood appeared on the forearm that extended into the ramrod hole. I got it at Friendship man-years ago and smiled when I watched several fellows pick it up, look at it and mutter "junk". I knew it was an easy fix and a simple dovetail graft that I have seen on originals several times where the ramrod wore through the forearm or it was mis-bored. I am currently building the flintlock rifle using this "reject" stock - a $20 bargain that saved me close to $200.

    I'm a firm believer that in 99% of the time, there is a "repair" - but - it all depends on what the rifle is and what the "trade off" is - I would rather restore an original stock on a decent piece to preserve it but my time is my time. If you had to pay someone to do it - then it becomes a factor of whether it is worth it or not. On a "production" rifle? I'd either try to find a replacement stock, part it out or "re-stock" it if I had the ability and the tools required.

    Good luck and hopefully if it is an original, you'll be able to save and preserve it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_0007.jpg 
Views:	30 
Size:	11.2 KB 
ID:	206168   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_0010.jpg 
Views:	28 
Size:	11.0 KB 
ID:	206169   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_0087.jpg 
Views:	32 
Size:	22.0 KB 
ID:	206170   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_0093.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	23.3 KB 
ID:	206171  

  5. #5
    Boolit Master FrontierMuzzleloading's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Boncarbo,Colorado
    Posts
    400
    You can repair that stock by drilling a hole in between those sections and installing a wood dowel or even all thread and using epoxy to bond it together solid.

  6. #6
    It is indeed a peculiar break, for a gun with the stock grain laid out at all t to suitwell. If it had been a foreign gun I would wonder whether it was cut to fit a returning soldier's kitbag, and I would look for scratches in the trigger-guard inflicted while doing it. It is complicated by the possibility of a longitudinal crack running backwards from the break, about horizontal in the picture. But that might only be a scratch.

    It is a very difficult one to fix well, but the rifle sounds worth restoring by making your own stock. It gets easier when you have one to copy, and aren't wondering if the metal fittings will shout "Track of the Wolf" or "Dixie" (both excellent firms) to those who know. Yes, a new stock will devalue it a bit, but so will an amateurish-looking repair.

    It isn't a great stock, and I don't know how bad the delamination is. If I badly wanted to preserve an original stock in this condition, I would first see if the surfaces are a recent enough break for the fibres to fit together. If not, or if they are clogged up with old glue, I would finish them off flat. If you epoxy old animal glue (the traditional pension plan for old racehorses), the strength of a bad animal glue joint is what you get.

    Then would drill a hole, about 5/16in. diameter, all the way from the buttplate or patchbox to the barrel tang. It can be drilled a little oversize and then filled with car body repair filler around a greased nylon rod. Epoxy the forward part of the rod into the stock, then while the epoxy around the butt part of the rod is still fluid, draw it up tight with a nut. The epoxy at the joint itself could be coloured with lamp black or an overdose of Brownells brown epoxy dye.

    That joint is still going to be noticeable, and I don't much trust its strength. I would use a grinding wheel, or chisels and a large can wraou pped in coarse abrasive paper, to make indentations within a quarter inch of the threaded rod, on either side. Each one should be accurately made, like part of a cylinder. Then I would epoxy in wooden "cheeks" and finish it off flush. I doubt if many rifles like this were checkered at the grip, but it isn't grossly out of period, and would help to hide the joints. So would darkening the wood to match.

    You were probably glad enough to buy it devalued. One way or another, I think you can make a very useful improvement on that.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,533
    First establish that the mating surfaces fit together then line up and drill at least two Screw Holes at an angle from the Trigger guard area.Fit the Screws then remove them.Using Two part epoxy adhesive on both surfaces and some in the Screw Holes fit the Screws squeezing out any excess glue.When set Checker or have someone Checker the Wrist Area.I have done the same on a couple of Guns but never seen one that had broken directly across the wrist in that fashion.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,533
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Whitworth Match Rifle 001.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	82.7 KB 
ID:	206200
    Fixed this rifle that had broken across the Pistol Grip by drilling and fitting Wood Screws from under the Grip Cap and drawing the Parts together having used Two Part Epoxy Glue.I then picked up the Checkering.The repair cannot be seen now.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Fairplay, MD (Western Maryland
    Posts
    53
    Here is another picture. The red shows the break shown before and the blue you can see the grain run out and separations. The break in the grip looks directly 90 degrees to the grain.

    From this picture I am not sure the stock is salvageable, I could make a new stock and use the existing stock and reliefs as a pattern.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Broken stock_1.JPG 
Views:	51 
Size:	34.3 KB 
ID:	206203

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Space Coast, FL
    Posts
    1,305
    I have seen/worked stocks on rifles that have hung over Fireplaces for many a moon from the northeast. They had shrunk and felt like Balsa wood, not good for shooting again IMHO. I would have some concerns about sticking my face on something like that if it is indeed found to be. I have a Hi-Wall with super duper beyond belief walnut, it broke at almost a 90 at rear of tang very close to this ones location. If the metal is good, why not put some good new wood on it and make it fit you while your at it?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,533
    A friend was given a Wogden Flintlock Fowler that was found by a Local Farmer in the Roof of one of his Barns.He was able to renovate the Metalware tastefully.The stock was full of Worm Holes and very light,on discussing the Gun with a Friend who is a Technician at a local University it was decided to soak the Stock in a Bath of Wood Hardener.The experiment worked and made the stock strong.He now Shoots the Gun with light loads to great effect.Hopefully I might get to take a Picture of the Gun to prove this story of bringing a firearm back from the Death.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,533
    I would go for repairing the Stock,a good honest repair gives the impression of a well used Gun that has seen some life and retains the vintage look.

  13. #13
    Another possibility would be to glue the break in a way not expected to bear the shock of recoil, possibly with ⅛in. metal pins just below the surface on either side, and then cut a slot in the underside. It would be about ½in. wide and run the full length of the trigger-guard (which would render it inconspicuous), and just below the surface at the top of the grip. Then glue in a piece of wood, which could be something stronger than walnut, such as ash or hickory. It would be easiest with a milling machine or router, as the fit should be very close, but it could be done with chisels. I have a couple I made from high speed steel, with a cutting angle so acute that they can never be used on knots or hit with a mallet, but they cut like your brain is working a CNC machine - as probably brains will after we are dead and gone.

    You could also weld or silver solder an extension to the breechplug tang, past the break. I've seen one which tapered to run all the way up to the comb behind the grip, on an African big game rifle which was probably made when they hunted on horseback. You could also inlet a stout steel plate along the bottom of the insert mentioned above, with vertical screws from metal to metal. This would combine well with the wood insert described in this post. Probably not with the full-length threaded rod in my last post, although I do know of someone, not me, putting a screw through an oversized brass drawbolt in a Martini stock.

    If you do go for the full-length rod, here is my stock-drilling... thing... . It is a pretty good rule that if you want to make anything with a hole in it, do the hole first and then the outside around it. In your situation, though, the procedure would be to drill the butt part from wrist to buttplate, and then use that hole as a guide to drill into the other piece.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Martini stock drilling.jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	172.8 KB 
ID:	206229

    If you still go for your own new stock, I don't think modelling it closely on the existing one would increase the gun's monetary value over any reasonably appropriate replacement. But you would know.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Fairplay, MD (Western Maryland
    Posts
    53
    The more I look at it the more I think I might not. The nipple and mount that screws in the barrel are missing. Part are probably not available and I sure one would have to be made. Images of the bore look rusty and I can't see the rifling.

    If bought I'd like to restore it to shoot and even with a new stock this one is looking rougher by the day. I don't want a pretty wall hanger.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Col4570 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Whitworth Match Rifle 001.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	82.7 KB 
ID:	206200
    Fixed this rifle that had broken across the Pistol Grip by drilling and fitting Wood Screws from under the Grip Cap and drawing the Parts together having used Two Part Epoxy Glue.I then picked up the Checkering.The repair cannot be seen now.
    Ahhhh!!!! But things are worth doing for a rifle like that, which aren't for something which is going to be pretty rough anyway.

    When you only have an old crack, rather than separate pieces, getting dirt and debris out is important. You can get superglue into just about any crack, but it has virtually no gap-filling ability as epoxy does, and you don't get time to correct mistakes. As well as various stiff plastic sheets, unwaxed dental floss can be useful for cleaning out the crack.

    I'd always use the standard epoxies, taking a couple of hours or more to set, rather than the five-minute varieties. The extra strength and heat resistance don't matter in this context, but I've lost count of the times I've found the phrase "five minute job" ringing hollow.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    nekshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    swmissouri
    Posts
    2,648
    I will take a clean break like that in a flash! Price must accomodate the devalue.
    Look twice, shoot once.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,533
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    Ahhhh!!!! But things are worth doing for a rifle like that, which aren't for something which is going to be pretty rough anyway.

    When you only have an old crack, rather than separate pieces, getting dirt and debris out is important. You can get superglue into just about any crack, but it has virtually no gap-filling ability as epoxy does, and you don't get time to correct mistakes. As well as various stiff plastic sheets, unwaxed dental floss can be useful for cleaning out the crack.

    I'd always use the standard epoxies, taking a couple of hours or more to set, rather than the five-minute varieties. The extra strength and heat resistance don't matter in this context, but I've lost count of the times I've found the phrase "five minute job" ringing hollow.
    Yes the Five minute job can turn out to be a major saga.I purchased the Large calibre Manchester Rifle and ordnance Co Rifle in a shocking condition.The lower end of the Pistol Grip was hanging on with the Trigger guard Screw but fortunately the Break had lost no wood from the edge of the break.I used Araldite Classic the slow drying epoxy Adhesive.I made some Walnut dust and mixed in to the Glue.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    MI (summer) - AZ (winter)
    Posts
    2,895
    What you are referring to as "missing" where the nipple is, is a screw in drum. These are readily available in different diameters depending upon what the lock plate requires. They are available underlined for the nipple and a boring jig for drilling the nipple hole and then tapping it so that it is in alignment with the hammer cup are fairly inexpensive. Track of the Wolf and others carry them.

    If this is an original, more than likely the drum hole would need to be bored out and tapped to a bit larger thread. The breech plug might be a different story. On original barrels, the breech plug threads were a very coarse thread. One advantage of that was that a barrel could be pulled and the breech plug fairly easily removed if necessary. Coarser threads are easier to "loosen" than finer threads such as are used on the breech plugs made today. Irregardless, love the years I have restored several originals back into shooters even when the breech is rusty and pitted. A good gunsmith can cut the breech of the barrel off in front of the drum and counter bore and thread the end for a modern breech plug as well as do the necessary work for installing the drum.

    Not all bores can be saved and it depends on how bad they are rusted. I have salvaged a number of barrels that showed quite a bit of rust by soaking in such things as liquid wrench, etc. and giving a good scrubbing with bronze brushes. After that, I have used rubbing compound on a patch and worked the bore over to polish it which removed some of the sharpness of whatever pitting there might be. Nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say. A lot depends on the type of rifling it has as well. When done, the barrels that I worked on shot decent and it saved a re-bore/re-rifle job. I bought a old 1 1/8" heavy octagon barrel once at a gun show that had been taken off of an old muzzleloader. it was only a .32 caliber and someone had cut the breech off of it. I bought it with the intention of boring it out and relining it. When you held it up to the light, you couldn't look through the bore but from the muzzle and breech end, it was event that it had heavy rifling. I soaked it for a week and went to work on it and by the time I got done, the bore polished out very well and a tight oiled patch could be put through it with no hang ups or snags in spite of some pitting in spots. The barrel was around 25 inches in length and I only gave the guy at the show $10 for it as I knew I could bore it out and re-line it. I got it cleaned up and put in on my barrel rack and was "saving" it for a future build. A guy I knew wanted a 32 cal to make a squirrel gun and i ended up trading it to him for a barrel that he had that I wanted for a build. He re-breeched it and made a nice little half-stock percussion rifle that he uses for tree rats.

    A person has to decide of if an original is worth the price of the purchase and the cost of getting it in to shooting shape. If you can do the work yourself, then that is certainly a plus and save you money. BUT, you also have to consider your time and the amount of work needed. If you are looking for a good shooter, you might be better served to save your money, add to it when you can and then purchase a good production rifle or a custom built rifle that will allow you to do the shooting you want to, spare parts are available if needed and it will give you just as much enjoyment.

    Good luck in whichever path you choose - in the end, we learn a lot when we look at such things and that's what it's all about.

  19. #19
    Not to cry "Shame on you!" if the OP doesn't think restoration is worth doing, of course. But that mount for the nipple does indeed sound like the screw-in drum used for conversion of flintlocks, and later by percussion gunsmiths who wanted something simpler than shaped breechplug. There were no investment castings in those days. That is easily replaced, although tapping the hole in the barrel side will probably be required.

    For those who have a shaped breechplug with the nipple hole drilled direct, the nipple thread on an American sporting rifle is nearly sure to be ¼in. diameter, but the threads can have various pitches. You can usually determine this by screwing in a wooden dowel or plastic rod to take the impression of the threads. Track of the Wolf have plenty of breechplugs with standard nipple threads already cut, but they would probably need to have the barrel threads altered on a lathe to screw into a mid-nineteenth century barrel.

    Worn nipple threads are a bad thing, not so much for lack of strength (especially with the hammer slamming down on it at the time), but because black powder fouling penetrating along the threads can cause it to rust in place. Track of the Wolf have a wide range of oversize taps and nipples which will cure this problem.

    https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Searc...oversize%20tap

  20. #20
    Boolit Master





    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    2,222
    A Gunsmith can fix it. When you have no idea or the patience and skill it is the best way. The fix will be the strongest part of the stock.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check