Graf & SonsTitan ReloadingInline FabricationStainLess Steel Media
Lee PrecisionRotoMetals2ADvertise here

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: A doubt about reduced load.

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    switzerland
    Posts
    46

    A doubt about reduced load.

    Until now I've followed strictly Gibson suggestions i.e. enlarged flash hole for "the load" and dacron filler for magnum pistol powder (H110, N110) from 18 to 25 grs. Now I'd like to load 21grs Vhitavuori N110 with the gas checked Lee CTL-312-160-2R bullet for the argentine 7,65x53 carbine just to have (Quickload) 1831fps at 21940 psi. The doubt is : may I enlarge flashole avoiding dacron filler?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master iron brigade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    187
    Not sure about the flash hole enlargement, but I did have a 1891 Argentine that I shot quite a bit.
    Many loads were tried. I finally determined that the lands in the bore were rounded to the point that it just wouldn't shoot well. Away it went.

  3. #3
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    switzerland
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by iron brigade View Post
    Not sure about the flash hole enlargement, but I did have a 1891 Argentine that I shot quite a bit.
    Many loads were tried. I finally determined that the lands in the bore were rounded to the point that it just wouldn't shoot well. Away it went.
    What a sad story.....

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    2,337
    I was wondering what the heck you were doing using VV until I saw you are from Switzerland. "The load" we commonly use here is 12-13 gr of Red Dot. It was developed by Ed Harris. Mr Harris did not recommend either enlarging primer pockets or the use of Dacron with Red Dot. But Red Dot is a "fast" powder.

    If I were you, I would contact Larry as I believe he has loads for the 7.65. I doubt he used VV powders as they are expensive but maybe he played with them and can advise you. Not many of us here looking to reduce costs will employ VV powders unless they offer a significant advantage over other powders.

    Good luck
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    switzerland
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I was wondering what the heck you were doing using VV until I saw you are from Switzerland. "The load" we commonly use here is 12-13 gr of Red Dot. It was developed by Ed Harris. Mr Harris did not recommend either enlarging primer pockets or the use of Dacron with Red Dot. But Red Dot is a "fast" powder.

    If I were you, I would contact Larry as I believe he has loads for the 7.65. I doubt he used VV powders as they are expensive but maybe he played with them and can advise you. Not many of us here looking to reduce costs will employ VV powders unless they offer a significant advantage over other powders.

    Good luck
    Thanks for suggestions, I'll contact Larry. As regards powders you have to know that here US powders are imports so they are priced (God knows why) above imagination i.e. one pound of Hogdon H110 will costs 80$ while 1kg (more than two pounds) of Vhitavuori N110 (the cousin) will costs 100$. You can spare a lot buying italian shotgun powders but can only use with "the load" (are not suitable for magnum) cause they are not clean burning like VV, to me one of cleanest powder ever. Anyway Larry says he always uses dacron filler with reduced load of pistol magnum family powders, never with "the load".

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The Willamette Valley, in Oregon
    Posts
    354
    The interior ballistics of VV N110 is a bit of a mystery over here IMO; by all accounts it performs comparably to Hogdon H110 on the high end, but also performs very well with substantially-reduced loads unlike H110.

    Please keep us posted,

  7. #7
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    2,337
    Artu44,

    About 10 years ago I used some VV320 powder for .38 Spl "Cowboy" loads and it was the best powder I had ever used for low recoil rounds. As you said, VV powders seem to burn very clean and I found it accurate and consistent. I was so pleased with it that I never used it all up and I have two jugs of it left. It makes almost no sense to save it but I do. Reloaders can be nuts. If .22's go stupid again, I will use up the VV to make light loads for the grandkids. I think I was loading 2.5 gr under a 125gr bullet. It was what we call a mouse phart load.

    You are lucky that VV powders are a good option for you. But VV powders are 50-100% more than our local powders so not many on this side of the pond use them. I suspect most are competition shooters or those looking for the best performance. BTW, my last order for pistol powder (Clean Shot) was about $15/lb. - $33/kg. VV powders here are over $40/lb.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    oldblinddog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    742
    Flash holes only need to be drilled when you get down into the mouse fart loads with Red Dot or Bullseye at about 3.0 grains or less. With the load of 13.0 grains of Red Dot or any of these mouse fart loads no filler is ever required. Also, anything over 5-6.0 grains of Red Dot does not need the flash holes drilled because the primers don't back out as you are developing enough pressure. I don't know about your VV powders but just guessing from the charges you are loading you shouldn't be drilling flash holes as those are not mouse fart loads. In the 7.65x53 I use 10.0 grains of Unique or 21.5 grs of SR 4759 with the Lyman 314299 with no fillers ever. You may judge your powder's speed relative to these powders for comparison. As Larry recommends, only use fillers if you can gain accuracy and reduce ES/SD by using it. Otherwise, go to a slower powder for better case fill. Just looking at a burn rate chart N133 might be a better powder for what you want to do. About 25.0 grs for a starting load.
    Last edited by oldblinddog; 10-17-2017 at 12:01 AM.
    USMC 6638

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    255
    In the D/FW MetroMESS, VV powders run 30% to 50% higher than "domestic" propellants (despite many powders bearing domestic labels being made in Australia), so they're not quite as pricey in the SW U.S. as they appear to be in the Northern Midwest. Do you have access to RS or Lovex powders where you are? They may have a more economical powder which works better for your task.

    Hodgdon makes much of it H4895, and the "60% rule", which means, basically, that a rifle load using H4895 can be reduced to no less than 60% of the maximum charge listed for that caliber/bullet combination. You might inquire of VihtaVuori to see if they have a propellant that works similarly to H4895.

    Thanks for pointing that out, OBD! Correction made!
    Last edited by Kosh75287; 10-17-2017 at 01:25 PM. Reason: syntax error
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    oldblinddog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    742
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    In the D/FW MetroMESS, VV powders run 30% to 50% higher than "domestic" propellants (despite many powders bearing domestic labels being made in Australia), so they're not quite as pricey in the SW U.S. as they appear to be in the Northern Midwest. Do you have access to RS or Lovex powders where you are? They may have a more economical powder which works better for your task.

    Hodgdon makes much of it H4895, and the "60% rule", which means, basically, that a rifle load using H4895 can be reduced by as much as 60% of the maximum charge listed for that caliber/bullet combination. You might inquire of VihtaVuori to see if they have a propellant that works similarly to H4895.
    That's not correct. You multiply the maximum charge by 60% or 0.60. As in a 50 gr max x 0.60 = 30 gr start charge. It is reduced by 40%.
    USMC 6638

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    15,782
    "The doubt is : may I enlarge flashole avoiding dacron filler?"

    The Dacron filler will still be needed for N110 to ignite and burn efficiently under that light of a cast bullet in the 7.65x53 case. The enlarged flash hole may help a little but probably not enough.

    Because I've had no direct experience testing N110 I base this advise based on the VV manual says N110 is similar to H110 which I have experience with using 170 gr cast in the 7.65 Argentine. The Dacron filler is needed there to attain uniform ignition and burn while keeping the cast bullet below 1940 fps, the RPM Threshold for that rifle.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Denmark (a greasy little spot in Scandinavia)
    Posts
    460
    Quote Originally Posted by artu44 View Post
    Thanks for suggestions, I'll contact Larry. As regards powders you have to know that here US powders are imports so they are priced (God knows why) above imagination i.e. one pound of Hogdon H110 will costs 80$ while 1kg (more than two pounds) of Vhitavuori N110 (the cousin) will costs 100$. You can spare a lot buying italian shotgun powders but can only use with "the load" (are not suitable for magnum) cause they are not clean burning like VV, to me one of cleanest powder ever. Anyway Larry says he always uses dacron filler with reduced load of pistol magnum family powders, never with "the load".
    What about Reload Swiss?
    Good stuff, i use it all the time and it is way cheaper (40-45%) than VV here in Denmark.

    https://www.reload-swiss.com/en/reload_swiss/index.php

  13. #13
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Beautiful Idaho
    Posts
    1,029
    I'm on my fourth pound of VV N-110 I find it pretty hard to beat in the 357mag and 30 Carbine. I will also pay the difference for their 3N37 my favorite for 9mm and 40 S&W. Gp

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,811
    N-110 is like our 2400.
    in use not exact burn speed.
    as I remember VV put out a load manual for cast bullets and N-110 is the prominent powder used in the manual.
    I would contact them or find one of those manuals.

    I wouldn't enlarge the flash holes, and I doubt the load will need Dacron.
    you can test for the Dacron need by putting the powder to the rear of the case and by having it sit flat in the case.
    if it shoots better at the back [and I bet it does] then a light amount of filler [@.75grs]replacing some of the powder weight [@1/2grs] will be beneficial.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    switzerland
    Posts
    46
    Thanks guys for tips. I've tried few other powders including RS40 and discontinued Lovex but for a reason or another my main choice is the superb Vhitavuori stuff. I use N320 and N340 for the 45ACP, N110 (strictly cousin of H110) for reduced load and Vetterli rounds and N140 for regular loads in my milsurp (three argentine mauser, one mousqueton berthier and one Steyr M95). Buddies use also N130 for the 45/70 and N150 for the swedish 6,5x55. I think I'll continue to follow Larry Gibon suggestions because I'm afraid of powder crawling in the case nor I want put rifle in vertical before shoot it. I would have preferred to avoid dacron just for the smell, the funny plastic ring often ejected with the case and the time lost to prepare and put it in the case, but after all I'll continue.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Shiloh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Upper Midwest
    Posts
    6,351
    Why do you enlarge the flash hole??

    Shiloh
    Je suis Charlie

    "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
    Bertrand de Jouvenel

    “Any government that does not trust its citizens with firearms is either a tyranny, or planning to become one.” – Joseph P. Martino

    “If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman

    "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    9,568
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiloh View Post
    Why do you enlarge the flash hole??

    Shiloh
    Light loads do not have enough recoil to re-seat the primer after firing. Enlarging the flash hole reduces the force back against the primer and it tends to stay in place.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Treasure Coast, Fl.
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by artu44 View Post
    Thanks for suggestions, I'll contact Larry. As regards powders you have to know that here US powders are imports so they are priced (God knows why) above imagination i.e. one pound of Hogdon H110 will costs 80$ while 1kg (more than two pounds) of Vhitavuori N110 (the cousin) will costs 100$. You can spare a lot buying italian shotgun powders but can only use with "the load" (are not suitable for magnum) cause they are not clean burning like VV, to me one of cleanest powder ever. Anyway Larry says he always uses dacron filler with reduced load of pistol magnum family powders, never with "the load".
    WOW,
    $80 / lb for H110. That is depressing. Even Bass Pro prices aren't that crazy. What do primers and other components cost?
    I will never again (at least until election time &#128584 complain about powder costs.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    15,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiloh View Post
    Why do you enlarge the flash hole??
    Shiloh
    I shoot many thousands of squib loads in various calibers but mostly in .30s. Many of these are rimless cartridges; 30-06, .308, .308 CBC, 7.65, 7.62x39 etc. The squib loads I shoot most often is a Lee 314-90-SWC-TL over 2.7 to 3.2 gr of Bullseye depending on the cartridge. Velocity is around 800 – 875 fps. I found a long time ago the shoulders do in fact get set back with light loads such as those. With many cast loads that use normal weight bullets in the 1600 to 2000 fps range there was little setback. It basically is a matter of the psi the load generates. It takes roughly 7,000 psi (depends on thickness and hardness of the brass along with how much the case needs to reach the chamber walls.

    Measurements of shoulder set back or increase are easily taken with a Stoney Point tool. There have been basically the two theories regarding the cause; the firing pin blow theory and the primer theory. I ran the same tests with a fire formed case and inert primers; headspace was not changed. I then used the same fire formed case with live primers. In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace. After five live primers the fired primer was noticeably backed out after firing. NOTE: this increase in headspace was with case taking LR primers. I never experience the problem with the .222 Rem or the 5.56 NATO.

    Using #d drills I gradually increased the flash hole diameter with a progressively larger drill. Using a different fire formed case with each larger drill and firing 5 primers I then measured the headspace before firing and after. As the size of the flash hole increased the headspace decrease lessoned. With a # 29 drill I no longer got any decrease in headspace. I dedicated five .308 cases and five 30-06 cases that were well fire formed to their respective rifles chambers and drilled the flash holes with the #29 drill. Over the next few days I fired 50 shots with each case. There was an indoor 50” range where I was stationed so it wasn’t all that bad. After the 50 firings there was negligible change in headspace with any of the five cases of each cartridge. The results of my test firmly demonstrated to me that it was the force of the primer explosion that drove the case forward and set back the shoulder. The squib load does not have the pressure to expand the case out to fit the chamber. By drilling out the flash hole the force of the explosion mostly went directly into the case as there is little rim left to contain it. Two other side benefits that were unforeseen; the extreme spread and standard deviations of the velocity readings improved and the case position sensitivity of the small charge was greatly reduced.

    As a result of the above tests I dedicated fire formed cases for squib loads for each rifle in rimless cases and drill out the flash holes. I have fired them many, many times now with no further change in headspace. Besides the squib load mentioned I also use 311631 (# may be wrong but it’s the 118 gr GC 32-20 bullet) with Unique in the above cartridges loaded to 1400 fps or so for a little more powerful small game load. The flash hole drilled cases work just fine for those. I now use the flash ole drilled cases for all my rimless cartridges with squib and really light loads.

    Larry Gibson

    Further pressure testing in the .308W the last few years indicated that loads with a psi above 12,000 will obdurate sufficiently to prevent the primer from driving the case forward thus setting the shoulder back.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  20. #20
    Boolit Master vzerone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    917
    Larry have you ever tried Red Dot inside of Bullseye? It works pretty well too.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check