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Thread: PP Questions, Saeco #315 & .308 Winchester

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Round Rock, TX
    Posts
    84

    PP Questions, Saeco #315 & .308 Winchester

    Howdy,

    New to PP, I've read many of the threads posted and can't find a specific answer. Here it goes:

    I have an NOE copy of the Saeco #315. Made up some test patches and depending on how far up the bearing surface I go, the boolit requires very deep seating to chamber. Am I asking for disaster if I leave a fair amount of bore riding bare lead? Looking to produce fairly warm loads (~2000-2200fps). For reference the top dining band is .3015" and is well engraved as setup for lube and gas check. Picture: center cartridge has patch tucked into the first grease groove. Right cartridge as I normally load for this gun. Left cartridge patched all the way up the bearing surface, note deep seating required to chamber. I wet patched these and ran through a .311" sizer with a pinch of lube after drying over night. Mold print link:

    http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/...GC)_Sketch.Jpg

    Question 2: Assuming any of the above works, can good accuracy be had with long bore riding noses such as the Lyman 311299?Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Far Nth Qld Australia
    Posts
    1,184
    I have that mould too.
    It shoots well in my 30-30.
    I'd stick with the second one but make sure you have the edge of the paper just off the top of the lube groove so it shrinks and grips into it.
    It cannot catch that way.
    Either should work and try both.
    A wipe with alox over the exposed nose if you are worried about lead.
    I have a tendency to patch well over the nose till the double wrap is bore diameter.
    Acww should be fine

    long nose riders will work if you patch over the nose.
    I found if I didn't it would tend to grab and wrinkle the patch back like a ..dare I say ..."broken condom"
    Last edited by barrabruce; 10-14-2017 at 08:55 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Round Rock, TX
    Posts
    84
    The grab and wrinkle part is what I was concerned about. Will be trying a few set up both ways for sure. I'll be a bit before these get shot but I'll report back. Too many irons in the fire at the moment.

    Thanks!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    5,281
    I can't answer for that boolit but I tried the 316299 with short patch and it did not work for me.

    I large turned the driving bands to size for patching so it was still a nose bore rider but accuracy was not good.

    Longbow

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    578
    KVO,

    It's been awhile since I've been on this website. I shoot PPCB mostly at 3000+fps. The Saeco #315 is supposed to be an accurate CB and has good separation between the CP & CG to promote accuracy. I don't use the #315 CB for PP, but here are some suggestions to try:

    1. Try a final size OD of about 0.308"D. This was recommended by the NRA years ago for PPCB in their Cast Bullet Manual.
    2. The groove diameter of your .308 Win should be 0.308"D. As your 0.311"D PPCB enters the 0.308"D groove diameter rifling, its got to swage down to 0.308"D while the 0.300"D bore diameter rifling is cutting the PP and engraving the CB. Swaging down a PPCB can exert a lot of force to pull off the PP. As a test of how well your PP is staying on the CB, try running your 0.311"D PPCB through a 0.308"D sizing die. Does the PP slip off the CB? If it does, the PP is being stripped off the CB and a bare CB is entering your rifling and that's not good! A 0.308"D final sized PPCB will enter the groove diameter, the PP will stay on, and the 0.300"D bore rifling will cut the PP and engrave the CB. That keeps the PP on the CB and between the CB and rifling -which is good for accuracy!
    3. Deep seated PPCB can be tilted by the gas pressure as they enter the rifling. Once PPCB are engraved, they are more resistant to gas pressure tilting. But try deep seated (w/PP over ogive) rounds. Also try PPCB rounds seated no deeper than the neck w/PP on cylindrical part of CB and back from the ogive, BUT w/ PP in contact w/the chamber's forcing cone when the round is chambered. See which one of these two types of seating configurations shoots better.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  6. #6
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Round Rock, TX
    Posts
    84
    CJR,

    All very good info, greatly appreciated! I have .30 caliber sizing dies in .309", .311", .313" and .314". I"ll start off trying .309" and .311" since they are already in inventory, though I'm not opposed to getting more. If final sizing diameter being too big is going to be problem it will show up quick on the rifle I'm planning on using these in- it's a Kreiger Palma tight bore @ .298" bore / .307" groove, 1-13 twist. The WHY is because I got it for pennies from a guy who thinks his match barrels are shot out by 1500 rounds. After cutting off the old chamber and refitting, it was as good as a new barrel (not that there is any meaningful wear at that round count for my purposes anyway). I will definitely take all this heart and report back once I have some meaningful test data. Hopefully by the end of next week.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    578
    KVO,

    What velocity you are PP'g at also affects PP slippage. If you are PP'g below 2000 fps and using soft CB, the PPCB more easily swages down and the PP may stay on the CB as it enters the rifling. If you are PP'g above 3000 fps and using a harder CB, the PPCB is more resistant to swaging down which in turn places more force on the PP to cause PP-slippage. When I'm developing a new load at the range, I dry-brush the barrel between firing. If I feel brush- resistance in front of the chamber-the PP most likely was cut when the PPCB was chambered,i.e. the bare CB is fouling the rifling in front of the chamber. When I get brush-resistance mid-barrel- the PP most likely stripped off the CB as the PPCB was traveling down the barrel,i.e. the bare CB is fouling mid-barrel. If the brush- resistance appears uniform to the muzzle-most likely the PP survived its journey, i.e. the PP stayed on and allowed the cut PP to separate from the CB at the muzzle exit.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  8. #8
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Round Rock, TX
    Posts
    84
    I was able to shoot the first round of PPCB today, though I was unable to retrieve targets (busy range and trip cut short due to sick 4 year-old at preschool). To summarize results referenced to 1st post:

    308 Winchester, 1-13 twist tight bore/groove (Palma) 175gr Saeco #315, all sized .311 after wet patching and a dab of BAC for sizing lubricant, CB were not pre-sized to bore diameter, but wrapped as cast and push thru sized after dried. All patches had tail twisted under the base and cut off with snips before sizing. All rounds were loaded with 40.0gr IMR 4064, all CB cast from range scrap.

    Short seated rounds wrapped all the way to the ogive (or truncated cone in this case) with vellum tracing paper and no gas check shot the best, about 2 1/2" at 100 yd.

    Deep seated wrapped with printer paper and gas checked shot bad, about 4" all vertical stringing.

    Long seated CB wrapped with tracing vellum, no gas check and set up to engrave on first band with patch tucked into first lube groove shot big round groups, about 3.5-4". At least they looked the most handsome loaded up.

    Absolutely zero evidence of leading, bore was checked after every shot. Clean up through 20 rounds of PPCB so it would seem that the patches are staying on for the ride. Nice confetti puff after every shot.

    Now that I've got a starting point I will begin fine tuning and experimenting with sizing diameter, pre vs. post sizing, charge weight, tail configuration, etc. The ultimate goal will be to keep groups holding 1 MOA with a velocity of 2200-2500 fps. Once I get some decent and consistent groups I will of course post pics! May eventually shoot some into clear ballistics gel and do a side-by-side vs some Hornady SP.

    To be honest I didn't think PP would be so straight forward. Thanks again to everyone who contributed their hard earned knowledge!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check