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Thread: Sheared Bolt Lugs - Swedish Mauser

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Sheared Bolt Lugs - Swedish Mauser

    m/1896 Swedish Mauser in Australia. Details of failure unknown to me.

    Those of you with metallurgical experience are most welcome to comment... though I know its hard to make a definitive statement based on such limited information.

    As with the 1893 Mauser photos I post these photos to illuminate the reality that seemingly strong and sound rifles suffer catastrophic failures and sometimes people are killed as a result. What exactly caused this incident, had it killed the shooter, would be immaterial to his widow and children. Dead is dead.









    pietro - resist the urge to hijack a thread that I start so you can make some idiotic statement.
    What you did was rude and I don't like rude.

    Dutch
    Contributor to [only] two books on Mauser rifles:
    "Crown Jewels: The Mauser in Sweden" by Jones
    "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" 4th edition by Robt. Ball
    Last edited by Dutchman; 08-15-2008 at 10:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Man TRX's Avatar
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    No sign of the "seashell" marks indicating fatigue cracking. The granularity of the broken area suggests that the bolt is a casting. Hmm.
    I'm going to forward the link to a couple of guys who have some expertise in failure analysis and see if they'll venture an opinion.

    I can visualize all the guys with the third-locking-lug actions nodding and snapping their suspenders now...

  3. #3
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    Yup, but the bolt handle is intact which means that sucker didn't come flying out into the guys forehead. I'd also venture a guess that primer pocket is a bit larger than normal. Obstructed barrel? Over load? There are pics here of Marlins and Remingtons and Winchesters all blown to heck too.

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    Boolit Master


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    Saw a bolt almost exactly like that a few years back at the gun club

    Story was the fool was shooting Hornady Light Mag ammo as his standard load

    Tryed to work up his own at those velositys

    First 10 or so no problem
    #11 the lugs sheared off

    Probely filled his shorts

    John
    Yea, thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
    And I carry a SIG

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRX View Post
    The granularity of the broken area suggests that the bolt is a casting.

    No Mauser military bolt made any where at any time was a casting. These are forged bolts.

    The fellow who supplied the photos was a former Australian army small arms amorer. I asked him twice for more info but he just didn't have any further information.

    Dutch

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    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Yuuk! Brings back memories...

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31989

    At least the lugs didn't shear in my case.

    I wonder if it is brass from the case you can see at the firing pin hole in one of the pictures, or if the bolt face/hole had been tampered with (brazing).
    I read somewhere that the hardening process of the 96 Mauser bolt and reciever was quite an intricate process. If some amature decided to 'improve' the bolt by hardening, it would explain the 'brittle' apperance of the fracture surface.
    Cap'n Morgan

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    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    [Beware of anyone who tells you how strong these small ring Mausers are.]

    The problem is, most wouldn't know a real Small Ring Mauser (which the M-96 most decidedly is not) if it bit them in the butt.

    Just because a Mauser action has a front receiver ring the same diameter as the left receiver sidewall, doesn't make it a "Small Ring Mauser".

    The term "Small Ring Mauser" refers specifically to cock-on-opening Mauser 98's of that description - which has all the safety features of the Large Ring Mauser 98 - and specifically NOT to any of the cock-on-closing Mauser Model 93's, 94's, 95's, & 96's - which lack those features.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    The problem is, most wouldn't know a real Small Ring Mauser (which the M-96 most decidedly is not) if it bit them in the butt.

    Just because a Mauser action has a front receiver ring the same diameter as the left receiver sidewall, doesn't make it a "Small Ring Mauser".

    The term "Small Ring Mauser" refers specifically to cock-on-opening Mauser 98's of that description - which has all the safety features of the Large Ring Mauser 98 - and specifically NOT to any of the cock-on-closing Mauser Model 93's, 94's, 95's, & 96's - which lack those features.
    http://www.mausercentral.com/rings.htm

    http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=43
    "The next size larger is the so-called “intermediate” size action of which there are several examples. The most common of these are the 1893-1895 Spanish Mausers and the 1894-1896 Swedish Mausers. These are the pre-98- style, small ring Mausers that have the long, non-rotating Mauser extractor, familiar ejector box on the left side (rear) of the receiver and the enclosed staggered-round magazine."

    http://www.rawles.to/Mauser_FAQ.html

    http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...=657***8705***

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26210

    Twice in one night...

    Dutch

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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    [Beware of anyone who tells you how strong these small ring Mausers are.]

    The problem is, most wouldn't know a real Small Ring Mauser (which the M-96 most decidedly is not) if it bit them in the butt.

    Just because a Mauser action has a front receiver ring the same diameter as the left receiver sidewall, doesn't make it a "Small Ring Mauser".

    The term "Small Ring Mauser" refers specifically to cock-on-opening Mauser 98's of that description - which has all the safety features of the Large Ring Mauser 98 - and specifically NOT to any of the cock-on-closing Mauser Model 93's, 94's, 95's, & 96's - which lack those features.
    Hmmmm. All these years it seemed (to me at least) almost universaly common to gather all the PRE1898 design Mausers (1889, 1891, 93, 94, 95, & 96) into the genre of "Small Ring" Mausers and their licensee's (FN, Spanish Gov't, and the Swedes). All the 1898 and beyond with the 1898 improvements falling into the "Large Ring" family.

    Just as there were differences in the various 'small rings' so too there were differences in the so called M98 Large rings. Standard and short length actions, Turk large rings accepting small ring threaded barrels, G33/40 Mountain, etc & etc.

    If the early cock on closing M89 to M96 designs aren't small rings, what are we to call them?

    ...............Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

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    "The term "Small Ring Mauser" refers specifically to cock-on-opening Mauser 98's of that description - which has all the safety features of the Large Ring Mauser 98 - and specifically NOT to any of the cock-on-closing Mauser Model 93's, 94's, 95's, & 96's - which lack those features. "

    Huh. Thats the first time I've ever heard the term "small ring" assigned to any '98 design. My library goes back to the 19th century and none of those resources refer to a '98 design as a small ring. Short, intermediate, magnum, yes, but not small ring. Luwig Olsons Mauser book makes no mention of this either. Where did you get this definition Pietro?

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    Boolit Man TRX's Avatar
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    The guy I really wanted to have a look is a failure analysis expert. However, he couldn't venture much of an opinion since the pictures were deleted.

    Another, who managed to take a look before the pictures went away, said the large grain size was sometimes seen after a bad heat treat.

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    Boolit Master C A Plater's Avatar
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    I thought the term small ring and large ring when applied to Mauser rifles meant the barrel shank of the small ring was .980" and large has a 1.10" shank both threaded 12 TPI.

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    Boolit Master
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    i am by no means a mauser expert, but there has been a pretty clear definition in my mind of small ring and large ring mausers.....alot of it provided by my fellow cast boolit members.


    so sir, you are going to have to provide some documentation on your opinion....cause it is just your opinion till proven to the rest of us.

    having said that , most of us are willing to learn.

    mike in co
    only accurate rifles are interesting

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    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    Bret - I guess I have several replies, some stemming from over 45 years experience with these rifles, and others from my own library - and yet still more provided by a few of the above critics who either excerpted what suited them from a source, or didn't bother to read the source they hyperlinked.

    Mike in co - I have stated a fact, and not my opinion - as attested to over many years by real (not internet) experts, like Frank deHaas for one (see: BOLT ACTION RIFLES, Military Rifles & Actions, Mauser Model 98, pp 103/104).

    Dutchman: Why not paste the entire Brownell's section, like where the Small Ring Model 98 in described as one of the four Mauser variations, instead of just what fit your agenda ?

    Also, Dutchman, in your posted hyperlink to the MidwayUSA tech section, the Model 98 is listed under Small Ring Mauser's, just waiting to be read by any who cared to:

    "Small Ring Mauser - Mauser 34, 38, 91, 93, 94, 95, 96, 98 (Small Ring), 99 & All Other Military Model Numbers (except Large Ring Mauser 98)"


    Buckshot - [What are we to call them ?] - Good question.
    IMO (and this IS an opinion of mine), pre-98 Mausers are "Mausers with small rings", but M-98 Mausers with small rings are "Small Ring Mausers", decidedly different.
    What's not opinion, but fact - is that the defining feature that separates them is that the "pre-98's" are all "cock-on-closing" (unless aftermarket converted), while M-98's are all "cock on opening".

    .

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    i always based it on the distance from the 2 screws holding the action into the stock.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    [Beware of anyone who tells you how strong these small ring Mausers are.]

    The problem is, most wouldn't know a real Small Ring Mauser (which the M-96 most decidedly is not) if it bit them in the butt.

    Just because a Mauser action has a front receiver ring the same diameter as the left receiver sidewall, doesn't make it a "Small Ring Mauser".

    The term "Small Ring Mauser" refers specifically to cock-on-opening Mauser 98's of that description - which has all the safety features of the Large Ring Mauser 98 - and specifically NOT to any of the cock-on-closing Mauser Model 93's, 94's, 95's, & 96's - which lack those features.

    sir p, you leave most of us confused...in one mouthful you calim 96's are not small ring and then post references which say 96's are small ring.



    so quit posting YOUR opinion, and POST some facts!...not a reference to a book, but the rext from the book ....

    this single reference...with no supporting text, appears in error to begin with as it is a 98 reference......not a small ring refference.....so post the text.

    to the members here it is your opinion untill you post known supporting documentation...which you have not done....again post supporting text.

    riverrun.....we are talking "ring" not length......bolt holes would be action length...an entire nother subject.
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Anybody have the pix? I do failure analysis as part of my job in
    the aerospace industry for over 30 yrs. I'd like to see the fracture
    surface at least.

    In my experience, small ring is normally the pre-98 Mausers, but there
    are some 98's that have smaller rings, but this is not what is typically
    meant when the term is thrown out.

    I have a very nice 95 DWM Chilean Mauser in 7x57, but I definitely keep
    the loads to the levels in the normal manuals - 45K psi. No matter how
    nice the workmanship (it is amazing) the knowledge and science of
    steel manufacturing, alloying and heat treating were relatively crude in
    1895. "Best steel" in those days would be pretty average by today's
    standards.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

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    ...............To me, and maybe common concensus is that the term "Small Ring Mauser" does mean any of the Mauser, Loewe, FN, Spanish, and Swede manufactured bolt actions without the 1898's embellishments. Having had a keen interest in surplus military rifles, and having had an 01 FFL since 1980, it's simply been a given that when the average Tom, Dick, and Harry says Small ring, they know he means that series of Mauser designs pre-dating the 1898.

    It must be fairly common because in most all the adds for, and catalogs from the various importers after the 1986 importation relaxation, has simply refered to these types as Small Rings. I've never researched for, nor authored a book on Mauser rifles so I am no expert on their minutiae. I have read a lot about them though, and again it appears to me that common and understood (recognized) nomenclature is Small ring and Large Ring.

    Actually the Small ring family is fairly simple as their variations are pretty much cosmetic details especially among those after the '93 Spanish. So far as I know the round bolt Small Ring bolt will fit and work in any Small Ring action. The chinned Small Ring bolt being the exception and a Dremel will remedy THAT simple problem

    It appears to me that all the real exceptions and mystery is involved with the 1898 design. ALL Small Rings have the same ring OD. They are all of the same length, and share a common barrel thread OD. The exceptions ly with the so called Large Ring versions. They can have BOTH ring OD's and still be in the Large Ring family because they also retain the 1898's other identifying features, such as the 3rd lug, internal ring collar, improved bolt shroud and takedown feature, etc.

    Also their overall lengths can vary. The ring lengths can vary, plus you have the Turkish made K. Kale's that are true 1898's except they take the (dare I say it) Small Ring barrel shank. To my way of thinking we could have 3 groups without too much confusion. You'd have the Small Rings. Large Rings (which are well known as the M98's), and then possibly Small Ring 98's?

    .................Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

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    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

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  19. #19
    Boolit Master twotrees's Avatar
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    MtGun44, Me Too

    I run the Fracture and Fatigue Lab at Ga Tech and we do a LOT of testing on materials. ( Now Called the Mechanical Properties Research Lab)

    The Picture I saw was large grained and no to little ductal "lips" any where.

    If I had to guess, from what I saw it was catastrophic Fast Fracture.

    I would like to have seen the receiver too, as that could help in saying something about what caused it to fail in that manor.

    The 93 Mauser was the first use of modern metallurgy from the design phase forward. They picked the steel and heat treats Before they made up the gun instead of making one then trying to figure out what needed changed after trials.

    When (in another life) I built rifles on Mauser actions Bill Rodgers (Owner of Springfield Sporters, Importer of 90% surplus Mausers to the US) cautioned me only about making sure that the barrel shank and threads were a tight crush fit to the receiver. I custom built the stocks to fit the 16.5"-18" barreled rifles. They made nice light walking woods Varmint rifles.

    I have cut down the length of both bolts and receivers on "Small Ring Mausers" and had them rewelded , with nickel wire and made pistol cartage rounds.

    From the cutting phase and the welding phase the metal they used was very predictable and uniform.

    The Failure seemed to be from a gross overload more than a metal problem.

    Just My Opinion (and we all know all of us have one of those, like something else we all have)
    Last edited by twotrees; 08-13-2008 at 08:22 PM. Reason: clarification
    TwoTrees

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  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Twotrees,

    Thanks for the info. So much in failure is dependent on a really good look at
    the broken pieces. If there is no apparent pre-existing fatigue crack ( and in
    your job you have seen plenty of those, I'm sure) then it does sound like a sudden
    failure. I agree totally that I'd love to see the receiver and barrel.

    It has always impressed me how rarely we see catastrophic destruction of
    firearms, even though I have personally witnessed three strong rifles in .223
    blown up by seriously overlength brass. No injuries whatsoever and one of
    the three was fairly easily repaired (new bolt/carrier assy) and was fully
    functional. Two ARs and Mini14. Pressures must have been at least 90K and
    likely well over that, given that ~75K is considered a normal proof load.

    In any case, if anybody can get more pix a few of us out here who do this sort
    of reading of bones and chicken entrails professionally and are firearms hobbyists
    would like to learn more about what happens when things go very wrong.

    And +1 for what Buckshot said. . . .

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

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