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Thread: 45- 70 +p?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOA View Post
    If everyone used good common sense, the manufacturing companies would be selling a lot less large bore magnum rifles and revolvers.
    I'm not sure which way to take that statement. But I can say, remember, I'm in Ohio. If not for big bore straight wall cartridges, we would be back to shotgun slugs and muzzleloaders. Both of which are actually a big bores.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    I'm not sure which way to take that statement. But I can say, remember, I'm in Ohio. If not for big bore straight wall cartridges, we would be back to shotgun slugs and muzzleloaders. Both of which are actually a big bores.
    I'm Buckeye too. I wouldn't be using big bores if reasonable deer guns were legal. Our selection
    is suppose to be based on safety / population vs carry distance of a bullet. Ohio is 3/4 flat and I
    can understand them against 300 mags and such. I would like to see 30/30-class guns legalized.
    As far as expensive bullets and ammo for 45/70, 375w, ect is foolish for use on White Tails, they
    ain't Cape Buffalo. It sales pre motions for a problem that doesn't exist.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    I built a Siamese Mauser in .45-70 one time. I loaded it up per the heavy loads listed as 'ruger #1 & bolt action'.
    I found out real quick that those heavy .45-70 loads are a entry level .458 Win mag territory.
    Yes, there is a reason for the +P designation.
    There are considered to be 3 levels of loads for the 45-70;

    Level I is for trapdoors, Rolling blocks and other black powder era designed rifles.

    Level II is for M1886 and Marlin lever action rifles.

    Level III is for Ruger #1 and #s and "bolt actions" or other modern actions.

    I believe there is a Level IV. I have loaded above level III for some years in my Siamese Mauser that is throated for 400 gr bullets to be seated out to magazine length. That give the case capacity of the 45-90. I have 400 and 500 gr loads, jacketed and cast, that are definitely in the 458 Win range generating measured psi's o 60 - 62,000 psi.
    Larry Gibson

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    ― Nikola Tesla

  4. #24
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    I just killed my first .45-70 deer this past weekend with a pretty wimpy load even by Trapdoor standards and I doubt one of these super heavy loadings would have killed it any deader any faster. I doubt I'll ever get drawn for an elk tag and we don't have bears here. I think the +P thing is to appeal to guys who are trying to compensate for something.

    I have a .458 now if I want to sink a battle ship or something. Seems to me the .45-70 is best left as it was intended to be.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    You might e-mail them and ask them how many boxes of .45-70 they've sold, at that price. It may be true that 405gr. at ~2000 f/s is overpowered for most things on the planet, but a lever-action rifle filled with them might make a bad encounter with a grizzly a lot more easy to handle.
    Just for purposes of perspective, it might be instructive to realize that a 1/2 ounce (437.5 gr.) rifled slug leaves the muzzle of a 20 gauge shotgun at close to 1850 f/s.
    Just a small point of math. 437.5 grains is 1 ounce not 1/2. Also the pressure is very differant in the shotgun. MUCH lower.
    Tennessee Hunter Education Instructor

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  6. #26
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    Wow, a deer killed with a wimpy 45-70 load.......I've killed deer with a .22LR......someone's obviously doing a lot of "compensating" using the 45-70..........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  7. #27
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Wow, a deer killed with a wimpy 45-70 load.......I've killed deer with a .22LR......someone's obviously doing a lot of "compensating" using the 45-70..........
    Lol. How do you feel about a 45- 70 for groundhog hunting? DID IT!

  8. #28
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    But they do not make 458 mags in fast handling lever actions. lol

    the last time I looked here, standard old Remington 45/70 ammo was something like 54 bucks a box here, not exactly priced to do a lot of plinking. lol

  9. #29
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    I'm not sure which way to take that statement. But I can say, remember, I'm in Ohio. If not for big bore straight wall cartridges, we would be back to shotgun slugs and muzzleloaders. Both of which are actually a big bores.
    Only thing I meant was that so many folks think they need a bigger gun when in reality they already have one that is just fine for the job at hand. For me, I know quite a few folks who have magnums that they have shot only once. In reality, lots of magnum safe queens out there.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    Lol. How do you feel about a 45- 70 for groundhog hunting? DID IT!
    When I lived over in NE Oregon every 1st week or so of May I was duty bound to go into the high sage and eliminate the rogue chisel tooths. These were the ones the tourists from the big cities and their local yokel PHs would just wound with under powered rifles, usually of .22LR persuasion with that cheap ammo sold in bargain "bricks" for the tourist trade. It is not good form when one of the locals gets their Vibrams scarred by a rogue....bad for the local touchy feely yuppie businesses old chap.

    I was one of the few who had a rifle of "sufficient caliber" that I could "stand the charge" when the rogues would charge, generally at very close quarters in the thick high desert veldt. I used my 450-400-70 (Siamese Mauser in 45-70) with the scope removed for the quicker use of the express sights at such close quarters. On the first foray I had a close escape when using a hard cast 457483 of 400 gr weight at 2100 fps. The charge came fast and low as they usually do and my first shot just nicked the top of the chisel boss and deflected without penetrating to the brain. Fortunately the shot "turned" the rogue and working the bolt very quickly I got in a solid quartering shot that "spined" him before he could turn for another charge. Obviously the bluff nose of that bullet and less than adequate SD would not do. I repaired back to the safari main camp where I had a top drawer mould of 500 gr. I quickly cast up some Lee C457-500-FNs, WQ'd them and loaded them the next day to 2050 fps , checked the zero and began putting together a kit for another foray.

    I didn't have long to wait. The next morning the game warden stopped by, only time he ever stopped by was to drink coffee and weasel reloading info out of me, but he did smoke decent cigars so I put up with him, besides he was a fairly nice guy. I knew he was working up to something because he spent 2 hours over several cups of coffee telling me how busy he was with the spotted toad project. I finally told him to just spill it out. He said they'd had a report of a family of Californians that was being terrorized down North Powder way and he was really busy with the spotted toads and would I, because I had a proper rifle and knew how to hunt rogue chisel tooths, etc. go down and sort it out.

    I sat there for a moment trying to decide whether the forlorn look on his face was fear that he’d have to go or fear that the coffee pot was empty! He finally couldn’t stand it any longer and said; “well, ya gonna do it?” I looked at him and said, yeah, I’ll do it but it’s going to cost you….with that I reached over and took the 3 cigars he had in his shirt pocket. Hmmmm, one of them was a Gurkha so the pay wasn’t too bad or so it appeared. He left in a huff…..after he filled his thermos with the remainder of the coffee of course….said he call me later in the evening as he was going to have file a report the next day.

    I grabbed my kit, the 450-400-70 rifle and 20 of the new loads and headed south. Didn’t take long once I was in the area to locate the terrified California tourists as all I had to do was follow the trail of laughing cowboys who couldn’t say much but just point in the general direction. The motor home stood out like Too Tall Jones in a pigmy village. Ma and the kids were locked inside still screaming. Fido was barking at the edge of the sage along the slow traffic pullout they had stopped at. I don’t think they pulled over ‘cause they were driving slow. Seems the fresh toilet paper strung across the barbed wire fence, actually the whole roll was strung out some 20 – 30 yards into the sage was a dead give away. Pa was outside with the hood (or whatever they call the engine cover on one of them things) with a two pronged wiener roasting stick in one hand and a kitty treat in the other trying to coax the family feline into coming out of the engine compartment.

    I walked up and asked if they were the ones who had seen the rogue. He stood up and instantly the sweat popped out on his forehead. He said they sure were and it darned near got his wife, chased her clear from the sage where she was…well….uh…er…uh….tinkling! He said he had had to go bad and pulled over and went into the bathroom in the motor home. The misses said she wasn’t going in there after him so she and the little girl grabbed the TP and went beyond the fence. The misses was holding the little girl while she squatted when they heard the blood curdling chirp and the rogue charged. The misses grabbed the girl, picked her up and started to run but the girl wasn’t done. He said then came the most terrifying scream he ever heard his wife make. I just nodded noticing the front of him…he looked down and said, “oh yeah, I heard the ruckus, I was done in the bathroom…it was still pretty bad in there so I come outside…., and anyways I run to the fence and the misses threw the girl over the fence to me”. He said what else was he to do but catch the girl and run back to the trailer ‘cept the girl still wasn’t done.......I could tell by the front of his shirt and pants......

    So there we stood while the misses was screaming, the girl was screaming and the boy was yelling at the dog to get in the motor home. ‘Bout then I also noticed the half of leg from a capri pants hanging on the fence. He said the misses had undone her pants and hadn’t thought to fasten them before she started to run, and besides she had the girl in her arms who still wasn’t done…….and he looked down at the wet front of his own shirt and pants He then pointed to the pant leg that got caught on the fence syin’ there was no way the misses was slowing down with that horrible creature on the loose. I was going to ask; “which horrible creature” but held my tongue, it musta been quite a sight though!

    Apparently the four humans and the dog made it into the motor home and the cat took refuge in the engine compartment. I asked him to quite waving the wiener roasting stick (with two very sharp prongs) around and just what was he doing with it anyways. He looked all indignant and said he was defending his family with the only weapon he owned! I just shook my head and asked if they seen the rogue and which way did it go. He said; “See it hell! It damned near got me! Just look at this”…at which he held up his foot and, sure enough, there in the vibram sole of his high tech made in China light weight all terrain winter summer weather water proof and breathable hiking shoes was the unmistakable twin gouges of a fresh chisel tooth strike!

    With that I walked over to my Jeep, put on my “tracking belt” with canteen, K-Bar, Ruger .44 BHFT in a Bianchi high ride holster, pouch with 18 extra .44 rounds and belt pouch with 6 extra 450-400-70 cartridges in it. I thought about the Ziess 10x40s but instead picked up the old pair of milsurp 6x35s as they’d be much better for the close quarters work ahead. I then took out the rifle, loaded the magazine with 3 of the hard cast 500 gr FN loaded cartridges and slipped one up the spout, put the safety on and headed for the point in the sage line “Pa” had pointed to as where the rogue was last seen. Then in retrospect I walked back to the jeep and put the other ten 450-400-70s in my safari jacket pocket. It could be a long afternoon.

    The Sun was searing a scorched path down the backside of the Elkhorn Mountains as the rogue’s fresh spore I was on suddenly turned back to the right down wind of me. He had picked up a partner, probably another of the old bachelor bulls that run together. Even when not wounded they are nothing to trifle with. The sweat was already streaking down my back and it sent hot/cold chills up my spine. I’d seen this before; the rogue and his partner had “button hooked” back on the trail and was now behind me. I already had the rifle shouldered and ready. My thumb reached up and snicked the safety off as I slowly pivoted around. I was trying awful hard to hear the slightest rustle; the smallest sound of a leaf being scrunched, the lightest noise of a blade of grass sliding against another and my mouth was bone dry. No time for the canteen, I knew he was there and he knew I was the there.

    The moment had come as the charge came low and fast as it always does. He had his head down and I knew he would turn the chisels up in a few short yards and those yards were closing fast. I had no place to side step as he had picked the spot well, high thick sage on each side of the trail. I had just enough time to notice this wasn’t the rogue charging, this was the old bachelor bull. The rogue was staring straight at me just a few short yards to the left, beautiful ambush! Unfortunately, I was the ambushee not the ambushor. The sights were already on with the big bead in the “V” lined up right between the eyes of the old bull, careful not to hit the boss of the chisel.

    On recoil as I was working the bolt I saw the shot had gone true and his knees buckle. I quickly turned to my left as the rogue was beginning his charge, he was the dangerous one. As he was wounded I knew a poor shot would not turn him. The shot was good taking him between the eyes and the 500 gr hard cast slug obviously penetrated to the brain as he slid to a stop at my feet. I quickly paid the insurance shot and turned back to the first. No need for the insurance shot as he was stone cold dead but what the hell, I paid it anyway.

    As I crossed the fence near the jeep the motor home was long gone, not even a note of thanks, just a large wad of TP and the rest of the roll still on the fence. I pulled out the camp chair, opened the cooler, slid my canteen cup through the ice and then poured a stiff “sundowner” of Tangle Ridge. Sitting down in the camp chair with the rifle across my lap I pulled the Gurhka cigar out and lit it up. A long pull on the cigar and then a longer pull on the canteen cup as I watched the Sun give up it’s last light down behind the mountains…..that’s when the shakes set in……

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 10-11-2017 at 03:29 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  11. #31
    Boolit Master woodbutcher's Avatar
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    Larry my friend,you Sir are a trip.And a damn good one at that.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
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    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
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  12. #32
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    A 405 grain bullet at 2050 fps would sure get your attention. I'd bet that you will be able to find partial boxes of this pretty cheap in the future.
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


    Disarming is a mistake free people only get to make once...

  13. #33
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    Larry, that was quite a tale. Glad you survived unscathed. A pox upon the ungrateful wretches who left you to your fate.
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


    Disarming is a mistake free people only get to make once...

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Heavy loads in a 45/70 can help flatten the trajectory somewhat if the recoil is manageable.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    I've been loading for my 3 45-70's (one is a #1) for years and never really got past warm trapdoor loads. I can't myself, imagine needing more.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    Personally I think the .45-70 is one of the most versatile cartridges available. The only downsides I see are high trajectory at ranges much over 200 yards with factory loaded ammunition (BP equivalent more or less) or recoil if one uses the dreaded +P loadings.

    I put thousands of rounds through my Marlin 1895 and converted Siamese Mauser with most being on the "hot" side as in +P for sure! Not sure what your problem with +P loads are. If you don't want to pay for them then don't buy them and if you don't like the recoil then don't load for +P but why would you question why someone else wants more power from the same cartridge in a gun that can handle the pressure safely?

    I also downloaded for plinking fun and punching paper. I've loaded lightweight collar button bullets with light loads of Unique to Lyman 457125 500 gr. bullets at the hottest loads Hornady listed for Siamese Mauser.

    I live in bear country and the Marlin Guide Guns in .45-70 are quite popular here as I understand they are in Alaska. Nothing wrong with BP equivalent loads for many things but when your life may depend on terminal ballistics it is prudent to use the best you can get and there isn't a bunch of better choices than a hot loaded handy .45-70. In my opinion anyway.

    Those that do not handload cannot get the +P performance in factory rounds so a few small outfits filled that void. Marlin created the .450 Marlin for much the same reason (though it floundered) to fill that niche of a modern .45-70 by utilizing the improved steel and design of their already existing 1895 platform.

    I'll also note that those who do not handload cannot get .45-70 downloaded with light powder charges and/or lightweight boolits which make the cartridge suitable for small and medium game should you not want the recoil or terminal ballistics required to reliably kill the fiercest of groundhogs as Larry faced.

    P.O. Ackley improved a lot of already good cartridges for the same reason ~ better performance out of existing guns and brass. Why are there +P .38 Special loads or +P .45 ACP? Because people want to get maximum performance out of what they have.

    You're happy with BP equivalent loadings and so you should be but some people want more. Let then enjoy what they want ~ flatter trajectory, greater terminal ballistics, more recoil, bigger boom or whatever.

    Longbow

    This being posted in response to the OP's post not Big Bore 99
    Last edited by longbow; 10-12-2017 at 10:11 PM. Reason: added note

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    Have a ruger #1 in 45/70. Did experiment once with 300 grain jacketed hollow points loaded above 1800 fps. Which is about the normal velocity of factory ammo. made a quick decision that 1800 was good right there. Depending on what you are shooting the +p stuff in, sometimes you run out of shoulder and its not fun anymore. Frank

  18. #38
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Personally I think the .45-70 is one of the most versatile cartridges available. The only downsides I see are high trajectory at ranges much over 200 yards with factory loaded ammunition (BP equivalent more or less) or recoil if one uses the dreaded +P loadings.

    I put thousands of rounds through my Marlin 1895 and converted Siamese Mauser with most being on the "hot" side as in +P for sure! Not sure what your problem with +P loads are. If you don't want to pay for them then don't buy them and if you don't like the recoil then don't load for +P but why would you question why someone else wants more power from the same cartridge in a gun that can handle the pressure safely?

    I also downloaded for plinking fun and punching paper. I've loaded lightweight collar button bullets with light loads of Unique to Lyman 457125 500 gr. bullets at the hottest loads Hornady listed for Siamese Mauser.

    I live in bear country and the Marlin Guide Guns in .45-70 are quite popular here as I understand they are in Alaska. Nothing wrong with BP equivalent loads for many things but when your life may depend on terminal ballistics it is prudent to use the best you can get and there isn't a bunch of better choices than a hot loaded handy .45-70. In my opinion anyway.

    Those that do not handload cannot get the +P performance in factory rounds so a few small outfits filled that void. Marlin created the .450 Marlin for much the same reason (though it floundered) to fill that niche of a modern .45-70 by utilizing the improved steel and design of their already existing 1895 platform.

    I'll also note that those who do not handload cannot get .45-70 downloaded with light powder charges and/or lightweight boolits which make the cartridge suitable for small and medium game should you not want the recoil or terminal ballistics required to reliably kill the fiercest of groundhogs as Larry faced.

    P.O. Ackley improved a lot of already good cartridges for the same reason ~ better performance out of existing guns and brass. Why are there +P .38 Special loads or +P .45 ACP? Because people want to get maximum performance out of what they have.

    You're happy with BP equivalent loadings and so you should be but some people want more. Let then enjoy what they want ~ flatter trajectory, greater terminal ballistics, more recoil, bigger boom or whatever.

    Longbow

    This being posted in response to the OP's post not Big Bore 99
    I don't have a problem if you want/need to use +P. Using the Buffalo Cartridge as an example, I can't justify a 25 percent gain in velocity for a 135 percent gain in cost.

    As I said in a previous post, some might think it's necessary....such as someone that frequents brown bears. But for the lower 48, there is no need IMO. I'm of the school of "if you need more power, get a bigger gun". 458 Winchester comes to mind. The .458 starts where the 45- 70 ends.

    Again, I have no issue if you see a need for 45- 70 +P. I was starting a discussion on the pluses (pun intended) and minus' for the need of a +P. I personally see no need for it in my outdoor situations.

    Then there is the issue of some Marlins developing cracks in the lower front of the receiver. +P loads will exacerbate the problem.
    Last edited by buckshotshoey; 10-13-2017 at 06:35 AM.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    Don't misunderstand, I am not arguing about the price issue as I wouldn't pay it either... unless I didn't handload and wanted that extra insurance of improved terminal ballistics and hard cast boolit for penetration should a large bear decide to lunch on me.

    Those factory rounds are $68.99 CDN at Cabelas Canada. Yikes ~ $3.45 each! Mind you the cheapest listed .45-70 ammunition is Hornady LEVERevolution at $54.99 for 20 and most others were over $60.00 for 20 so not cheap. I wouldn't pay for standard factory rounds either!

    For comparison .458 Winchester factory ammunition price at Cheaper Than Dirt ranges from $99.89 to $142.35 US for 20!!!!! Double yikes!!!!!!!

    Since I am a handloader though the .45-70 is a terrific cartridge for most things in my opinion. It is a very capable round in BP loadings and even more capable in smokeless loadings in strong guns.

    I couldn't find any info in an internet search or in Cartridges of the World but I am pretty sure that .45-70 has been loaded by factories with projectiles ranging from round balls and collar button boolits for small game and gallery loads, shot capsules, and bullets/boolits from about 250 grs. to 500+ grs. and what the factories haven't provided, handloaders have.

    While I wouldn't pay the price for factory +P loads unless I had to it is nice to be able to load up and down and the .45-70 in a strong gun allows for that. Being large caliber expansion isn't really needed for hunting which is a bonus in my opinion and the wide selection of moulds/boolit weights/styles allows for tailoring the cartridge and gun for plinking, target, hunting from small game to large dangerous game and dangerous game defense.

    The biggest drawback I see to .45-70 is trajectory for long range shooting (not usually a big handicap for most hunting situations) but higher velocity from higher pressure loads does flatten out trajectory some too so potentially extending hunting ranges.

    These days I wouldn't want (nor do I need) a steady diet of heavy loads but I would rather have the ability to load down and up should the situation arise that I want or need more horsepower. It is a lot cheaper to load or buy hotter loads for a gun I have than to buy another gun.

    While the factory loaded 405 gr. flatpoint might be good enough to hunt large/dangerous game or stop a grizzly charge, the +P load is better. Also, there are hard cast loads available from Garrett that are +P and a better choice for penetration than a soft point. They also come at a price of $80.00/20.

    Personally I'd rather carry a +P loaded Marlin or other lever gun than to buy a bolt action .458 Winchester if I felt the need for bear defense. If you don't live or hunt in bear country or don't hunt very large and/or dangerous game then not an issue.

    +P marketing ploy... maybe. Some will buy just because it is bigger and more powerful. Is there a practical need/use... yes. In my opinion anyway.

    Different strokes.

    I may be out of touch but I have not heard of the Marlin cracking issue. Certainly my 1895 didn't crack after much shooting of high end loads and it is still in service (a a friend bought it many years ago). I'll do a little looking into that as it is good information if a common problem since I am thinking of getting another Marlin 1895.

    Longbow

  20. #40
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Here is one occurrence I found on Marlin owners site. There was another mentioned here on the "no rifling in bore" thread. It's something that applies to just the big bore Marlins. None I have heard of in lesser calibers.

    The thread poster said his receiver threads are so thin, there is a void. Later in the thread, there is another poster reporting a crack do to the thin thread area. Not sure what years this was an issue. But something to look for.

    http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/#/.../115527?page=1

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check