Inline FabricationStainLess Steel MediaRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters Supply
Lee PrecisionTitan ReloadingADvertise hereGraf & Sons

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 64

Thread: 45- 70 +p?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    475

    45- 70 +p?

    I have been seeing 45- 70 +P ammunition showing up on the market lately. Is it just me, or is this more of a marketing ploy to sell ammunition? I can only think (offhand) of one good reason that this is necessary in an extremely capable and game proven cartridge.

    One thing that comes to mind is maybe it is labled for +P to designate it is to be only used in Ruger #1 type applications? Is there really that big a market for this or someone just filling a niche?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    2ndAmendmentNut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,730

    45- 70 +p?

    I have only seen Buffalo Bore 45-70 Ammo advertised as +P. The Buffalo +P is loaded to the same pressure level as what my load manuals refers to as “Marlin 1895” loads. These loads would also be safe in Browning 1885, 1886, modern Winchester 1885, 1886, and Ruger 1, 3 rifles. Not just advertising hype. These loads are a serious step up from standard or “Trap door” loads.

    When I first got my Browning 1886 I was excited to learn that the action was strong enough to use the higher pressure load data. I loaded up a box of 20rds and fired 3. Never loaded anything above trapdoor level after that. Recoil was to brutal for me.

    Standard trap door loads will kill any game on this continent. Probably be just fine for anything that has ever walked this planet.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by 2ndAmendmentNut; 10-10-2017 at 11:28 AM.
    "I don't want men who miss." -Capt. Leander H. McNelly

  3. #3
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    475
    Yea. And they want 80 dollars for 20 rounds. Over the edge in price even if they are lead free. Here's another example from Grizzlycartridge.com.....

    45-70 +P 405gr PUNCH

    45-70 +P 405gr PUNCH
    Caliber: 45-70 +P
    Bullet Wt: 405 Grain Punch Bullet
    Velocity: 2050 fps / ME 3780
    No. of Rounds: 20

    Recommended for hunting deer, bear, elk and bison.

    Our Price: $119.99
    Your Total:
    $119.99

    If they think for one nanosecond I'm going to pay 6 dollars a shot for a 45- 70, they have the education level of a grizzly! Gee.... I wonder if they are able to exceed their profit margin projections! It is really getting out of hand. I'm sure glad I cast and reload! It is almost getting so casting and loading is a gift from God!

    Sorry. Ranting a little after doing a quick search. Caught me by surprise. I wonder how many hunters they bag with their marketing skills?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    2ndAmendmentNut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,730
    I had no idea factory ammo was so expensive. Haven’t bought anything but 22lr in years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "I don't want men who miss." -Capt. Leander H. McNelly

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    253
    Your preaching to the choir here boys. Yes, most likely everyone on this forum reloads. But the majority of shooters don't. Those people pay the price because they have to.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    7,650
    The specialty loaers ( Grizzly, Big Bore, Buffalo Bore and some others) do try to cater to a niche market rather than compete with the ammo factories. It goes both ways also there are several that load lighter "cowboy" loads, True Black powder loads, and also some very potent high pressure stuff.
    As to the 45-70 "punch" load mentioned I have to wonder how much more power is needed for the game mentioned, since they were all reliably taken with the standard BP loadings for years. The buffalo hunters with BP and 500 grn bullets at 1150-1200 fps killed a lot of buffalos in a short time.
    I would imagine that that 405 grn load at 2000 fps would be brutal recoil in a lighter marlin lever action or even a heavier 8-9 LB rifle. I also wonder how many by them for the Contenders and BFRs revolvers in 45-70

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    258
    If they think for one nanosecond I'm going to pay 6 dollars a shot for a 45-70, they have the education level of a grizzly!
    You might e-mail them and ask them how many boxes of .45-70 they've sold, at that price. It may be true that 405gr. at ~2000 f/s is overpowered for most things on the planet, but a lever-action rifle filled with them might make a bad encounter with a grizzly a lot more easy to handle.
    Just for purposes of perspective, it might be instructive to realize that a 1/2 ounce (437.5 gr.) rifled slug leaves the muzzle of a 20 gauge shotgun at close to 1850 f/s.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    475
    While you may be correct, i doubt the griz will notice 300 fps. The same 405 gr will get the job done just as effectively at 1700. But i say that....sitting on my couch..... and not being charged at by something meaner and with worse breath then a mother in law! Shotgun slugs are getting pricey too. About $1.50 per shot (12 ga) around here when gun season gets close. . Glad I cast my own slugs too.
    Last edited by buckshotshoey; 10-10-2017 at 03:08 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    258
    I guess it's a matter of with which load the shooter can shoot best, under pressure. I guess I was catastrophizing a bit, and assuming that if I'm unlucky enough to encounter an agitated bear, then my shooting luck has deteriorated to the point that I may need that extra 300 f/s to penetrate enough "bear stuffing" to get to a vital area.

    I don't really know if 400gr. at 1700 f/s is enough to traverse an adrenaline charged bruin, but I would GUESS that it is. It very well might be easier to score hits under pressure with the 1700 f/s load, than with the faster one. Good thinking.

    As for the comparison of bad breath, I'd speculate that it depends heavily on WHICH mother-in-law.
    Last edited by Kosh75287; 10-10-2017 at 03:23 PM.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    475
    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndAmendmentNut View Post
    I had no idea factory ammo was so expensive. Haven’t bought anything but 22lr in years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    These are extreme cases of supposedly specialty ammo. Federal Power Shock runs in the $30 to $35 range for 20 rds. For 120 bucks per 20 rds, it better aim the rifle, pull the trigger, put down the deer, gut it out, and drag it back to the truck for me!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    475
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    I guess it's a matter of with which load the shooter can shoot best, under pressure. I guess I was catastrophizing a bit, and assuming that if I'm unlucky enough to encounter an agitated bear, then my shooting luck has deteriorated to the point that I may need that extra 300 f/s to penetrate enough "bear stuffing" to get to a vital area.

    I don't really know if 400gr. at 1700 f/s is enough to traverse an adrenaline charged bruin, but I would GUESS that it is. It very well might be easier to score hits under pressure with the 1700 f/s load, than with the faster one. Good thinking.

    As for the comparison of bad breath, I'd speculate that it depends heavily on WHICH mother-in-law.
    I'm not willing to put my theory to the test anytime soon! Lol

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The Willamette Valley, in Oregon
    Posts
    357
    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    [...] a marketing ploy to sell ammunition?
    The answer to this question is always, 'yes'.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    475
    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel4k View Post
    The answer to this question is always, 'yes'.
    I think this to be the case. The +P designation might be an attemp to gain in a market that only handloaders have enjoyed. Maybe not all of them, but most factory 45- 70 ammo falls into the Trapdoor category. An email to Hornady confirmed to me that the 45-70 Leverevolution ammo is held to 20000 psi. Possibly by adding the +P to the box is opening a new market to them. Especially with the new hunting regs around the country that allows the use of straight wall cartridges. And the new stronger rifles that come with it.

    I keep my cast 325's (actually weight 137 to 140 with my alloy) to 1500 or a little less. The deer shouldn't notice a difference.

    I have to wonder why +P would be necessary for anything in North America....with the possible exception of Alaska. I tend to think bullet selection for the task at hand is far more important then fps.... Especially in such a well proven cartridge with an excellent track record.
    Last edited by buckshotshoey; 10-10-2017 at 04:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Baldwin Co, across bay from Mobile, AL
    Posts
    589
    Well, I think the reason for labeling the ammo as +P is to prevent (or try to prevent) folks from shooting in trapdoor, rolling blocks, or even the sharps rifles. Where I grizzly bear hunting, I might want something more than a trapdoor load, and with the adrenaline from a charging bear - doubt I'd even notice the recoil..... until later- - then I'd be crying from pain

  15. #15
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    coastal Ga
    Posts
    719
    I built a Siamese Mauser in .45-70 one time. I loaded it up per the heavy loads listed as 'ruger #1 & bolt action'.
    I found out real quick that those heavy .45-70 loads are a entry level .458 Win mag territory.
    Yes, there is a reason for the +P designation.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    522
    1. Yes, some people want something with more power than a .45-70

    2. Many guns chambered for .45-70 can handle the higher pressures.

    3. Many people do not reload and do not shoot that much. Not a big deal to spend that much for a hunt. 20rds is enough to zero, or check the zero of, a gun and have enough left over to hunt. May even be enough for two hunts.

    Yeah, 'we' reload and can roll our own to do the same thing. For every person who reloads there are 100's (1000's?) who do not.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama, formally from Arizona Territory.
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    Yea. And they want 80 dollars for 20 rounds. Over the edge in price even if they are lead free. Here's another example from Grizzlycartridge.com.....

    45-70 +P 405gr PUNCH

    45-70 +P 405gr PUNCH
    Caliber: 45-70 +P
    Bullet Wt: 405 Grain Punch Bullet
    Velocity: 2050 fps / ME 3780
    No. of Rounds: 20

    Recommended for hunting deer, bear, elk and bison.

    Our Price: $119.99
    Your Total:
    $119.99

    If they think for one nanosecond I'm going to pay 6 dollars a shot for a 45- 70, they have the education level of a grizzly! Gee.... I wonder if they are able to exceed their profit margin projections! It is really getting out of hand. I'm sure glad I cast and reload! It is almost getting so casting and loading is a gift from God!

    Sorry. Ranting a little after doing a quick search. Caught me by surprise. I wonder how many hunters they bag with their marketing skills?

    No need to be sorry about the rant. My first part-time job while going to college was at a sporting goods store. That was in 81. I've watched ammo and gun prices climb to ridicules pricing levels. 06 box of ammo in 81 was going for 6.99-7.99 a box. Then to 9.99. By 1990 it was 14.99-16.99. And by 2002 it was 19.99-24.99. Then came the obomo years, climbing to 34.99. Just out of hand. Casting is really all one needs for 99.9% of hunting or shooting needs. The most important item to have is cases, primers and sizing dies. The rest you can pretty much produce on your own.

    As far as their marketing plan......well my degree was in marketing. The only suckers their going to catch are the ones who do very little critical thinking, and have most likely few friends who hunt or reload.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama, formally from Arizona Territory.
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    You might e-mail them and ask them how many boxes of .45-70 they've sold, at that price. It may be true that 405gr. at ~2000 f/s is overpowered for most things on the planet, but a lever-action rifle filled with them might make a bad encounter with a grizzly a lot more easy to handle.
    Just for purposes of perspective, it might be instructive to realize that a 1/2 ounce (437.5 gr.) rifled slug leaves the muzzle of a 20 gauge shotgun at close to 1850 f/s.
    Be interesting to see what the pressures are of the two, even if fps and grain weight is close. I'll wager the pressure is a very different story.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama, formally from Arizona Territory.
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by KenH View Post
    Well, I think the reason for labeling the ammo as +P is to prevent (or try to prevent) folks from shooting in trapdoor, rolling blocks, or even the sharps rifles. Where I grizzly bear hunting, I might want something more than a trapdoor load, and with the adrenaline from a charging bear - doubt I'd even notice the recoil..... until later- - then I'd be crying from pain
    BINGO ......KenH wins the prize. The shelves typically are stocked with the standard trapdoor pressure loads. Having the manufacturing companies load some that are manufactured to 1895 levels does allow the hunter to know his loads are not the anemic trapdoor standard fodder. Hence the printed notation of +P so no mix ups occur.
    Last edited by MOA; 10-10-2017 at 06:31 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama, formally from Arizona Territory.
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    I think this to be the case. The +P designation might be an attemp to gain in a market that only handloaders have enjoyed. Maybe not all of them, but most factory 45- 70 ammo falls into the Trapdoor category. An email to Hornady confirmed to me that the 45-70 Leverevolution ammo is held to 20000 psi. Possibly by adding the +P to the box is opening a new market to them. Especially with the new hunting regs around the country that allows the use of straight wall cartridges. And the new stronger rifles that come with it.

    I keep my cast 325's (actually weight 137 to 140 with my alloy) to 1500 or a little less. The deer shouldn't notice a difference.

    I have to wonder why +P would be necessary for anything in North America....with the possible exception of Alaska. I tend to think bullet selection for the task at hand is far more important then fps.... Especially in such a well proven cartridge with an excellent track record.
    If everyone used good common sense, the manufacturing companies would be selling a lot less large bore magnum rifles and revolvers.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check