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Thread: 45- 70 +p?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    My 1895 was a 1970's vintage and I wish I still had it. It was a victim of my need for money to go to college and was not replaced. I do have a chance of buying it back now.

    It would be interesting to know if this crack issue is for recent manufacture or if it is a flaw in all years of manufacture. I certainly haven't heard of it before so will be investigating to find out. If a recent problem then I won't be buying anything of new manufacture.

    I'll check that link out too. Thanks for posting.

    Longbow

  2. #42
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Prob ask the guys at Marlin owners. They will have the dope on the subject.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    It would be interesting to know if this crack issue is for recent manufacture or if it is a flaw in all years of manufacture.
    It's a Remlin issue.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master

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    So my 1970's vintage gun becomes more attractive. It has hardly been shot since I sold it to my friend.

    We'll see how the toy money holds out.

    Longbow

  5. #45
    Boolit Master Mytmousemalibu's Avatar
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    I admittedly have not ever pulled the trigger on anything 45-70, I know, I know, that's some kind of sacrilege. So when talking about top-end 45-70 loads, can it honestly kick harder than a light 12ga with a savagely hot 3" slug? Like a 1-1/2oz slug at better than 1600fps? Thats getting close to 4000ftlbs of muzzle energy! Or how about some of the wicked butt stompers available in 10ga?I'm pretty sure you actually feel your physical body leave your soul standing still as its accelerated rearward after touching one of those off! I would consider an "out of body experience/life flashes before your eyes" kind of thing some significant recoil! Now I know there's worse things out there like the African Nitro's, Kiln guns, and big bore military stuff like 20mm.
    ~ Chris


    Casting, reloading, shooting, collecting, restoring, smithing, etc, I love it all!
    Quote Originally Posted by GRUMPA View Post
    This innocent till proven guilty is more like a fantasy as time goes on. I don't know about you folks, but I for 1 am getting mighty tired of having to prove I'm innocent just because of what someone else thinks....

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mytmousemalibu View Post
    I admittedly have not ever pulled the trigger on anything 45-70, I know, I know, that's some kind of sacrilege. So when talking about top-end 45-70 loads, can it honestly kick harder than a light 12ga with a savagely hot 3" slug? Like a 1-1/2oz slug at better than 1600fps? Thats getting close to 4000ftlbs of muzzle energy! Or how about some of the wicked butt stompers available in 10ga?I'm pretty sure you actually feel your physical body leave your soul standing still as its accelerated rearward after touching one of those off! I would consider an "out of body experience/life flashes before your eyes" kind of thing some significant recoil! Now I know there's worse things out there like the African Nitro's, Kiln guns, and big bore military stuff like 20mm.
    Yes the 45-70 in a lightweight rifle feels like those examples of yours. But it depends on the stock design too. One rifle doesn't beat you to death like another different brand would. I remember there was/is a lever action rifle that was really hard on one when fired, but another brand was a lot nicer when fired. But the hot loaded .45-70 rounds can approach the lower end performance of a .458 Win Mag. Now couple that with a rifle that is light in weight and weighs less than the .458 Win Mag bolt rifles and then it will be rather hard on you when fired.

    Oh yeah, here is a interesting chart on the recoil energy of various calibers, etc.
    http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

    and some shotshell recoil energy too:
    http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

    and comparing rifles to shotguns
    http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_r...un_recoil.html
    Last edited by Earlwb; 10-16-2017 at 09:00 AM. Reason: add more information

  7. #47
    Boolit Master Mytmousemalibu's Avatar
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    Ya, the gun has a lot to do with the shoulder bruise index level. I was just curious if say you used the same platform like a 45-70 handi vs. a Topper 12ga or 10ga.

    I have a little H&R break-open 28ga. that is a pretty nasty little gun to shoot. The only 28ga. load I could find when I got it were some Remington hi-brass skeet loads. That little gun is very light and has a pretty, narrow steel crescent butt plate. With those hi brass loads it is surprisingly nasty to shoot.
    ~ Chris


    Casting, reloading, shooting, collecting, restoring, smithing, etc, I love it all!
    Quote Originally Posted by GRUMPA View Post
    This innocent till proven guilty is more like a fantasy as time goes on. I don't know about you folks, but I for 1 am getting mighty tired of having to prove I'm innocent just because of what someone else thinks....

  8. #48
    While these +P loads may be safe in an 1895 Marlin, Ruger #s 1 & 3, they will kick the snot out of you.
    Perhaps in the full size 1886 repro rifles with pad added @10 pounds they would be okay.

    There is just no application for these loads in the lower 48. A "normal" 45-70 with a 300 gr TSX will kill anything !

    For Alaskan Bears, the 375 H&H is a far better choice w/270 TSXs and shoots f-a-r flatter.

    Then there is retina detachment .......

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    There is plenty of application for them, just as there is plenty of application for just about any cartridge out there.

    Do you need one? Nope. For any application there are a few dozen guns/cartridges that can fill the order.

    I see no problem if someone wants them. And I don't care if they pay $100 a round to fire it. Just like I don't care if you reload for pennies a round.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master


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    My 400 and 500 gr loads for my 450-400-70 Siamese Mauser run 49 - 55 ft/lbs of recoil. When I fire the 500s from a sitting position they roll me over backwards.....lots of fun......

    No application? Obviously you've not hunted elk in a pole patch. Most often the only shot you get is a raking one at best or a Texas heart shot at worst. My 500 gr Lee cast bullet load at 2000+ fps will go from one end of an elk out the other. Besides, I just like to occasionally shoot such loads in the Mauser and heavy 300 gr loads in my M70 375 H&H. Please allow me my hallucinations as it is still a free country.......at least here in Arizona........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  11. #51
    Boolit Master

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    What Larry said!

    I have no hunting experience with my .45-70's but considering that, as has been repeatedly mentioned, the .45-70 with BP loads is responsible for the demise of many bison and other large critters and medium size critters I have no doubt that with higher velocities provided by higher pressure loads in a modern gun it can only be better.

    Again, in my opinion getting more oomph out of a cartridge and gun you have is part of the game (within safe limits of course). If you don't need it it or don't want the recoil then don't use those loads just like if you don't need a .458 Winchester or .460 Weatherby, don't buy one.

    As for cost which is where the OP started, I agree but then I wouldn't pay for factory .45-70 loads either... or even .303 British. That's why I cast and reload. If I only hunted I might just buy 20 factory rounds a year and pay what they cost. Overall that would be lots cheaper than having all the casting and reloading gear I have.

    As for "no application", "no use" or whatever for +P I am still baffled. If you hunt to only 100 yards then you certainly don't need the flatter trajectory or more energy than a BP loaded or BP equivalent loaded .45-70 but then you likely don't need a .45-70 either as a .30-30 would do for most hunting needs.

    Different strokes.

    Longbow

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    Forgot to add that powder choice has a lot to do with the recoil.

    I made the mistake of doing a large amount of research before I had my Siamese Mauser conversion built and decided that:

    - heavy for caliber boolits were the way to go so Lyman 457125 500 gr. was the mould I bought
    - Hornady listed a load using IMR4227 that was near top end velocity with much less powder than several other choices so IMR 4227 is what I bought
    - I'd buy 100 Winchester cases and load them with that load... yes, I know I should have started loaw and worked up but it was a strong action and I was using cast boolits and I was
    young and dumb!

    Well, I loaded those 100 shiny Winchester cartridges up with that load under the 500 gr. boolits and once my gun was complete off to the range I went. The gunsmith that built the gun wanted first shot but he only took one shot and then handed me the gun and said "You shoot it!"

    I found out why. It was a fairly lightweight gun with a plastic but plate (I wan't thinking here!) and the recoil was... let's just say objectionable. My shoulder was purple in a short time and I was flinching badly.

    After that outing I had a Pachmyr triple magnum recoil pad installed which helped then I researched more and went to one of the slower powders (IMR 4320) which used lots more powder to obtain same velocities but recoil went from unpleasant jab to a heavy push which was not at all objectionable.

    I stuck with slower end powders after that, top end loads but slower powders. Then I bought the Marlin which wouldn't tolerate those loads so I loaded for both and segregated rounds. After a bit of that I decided that the top end Marlin loads were all I wanted or needed.

    These days, i'd likely tone it down even more except if wandering through bear country which I live in. Nice to have a little more horsepower if needed or wanted.

    Larry likes to be rolled over now and again but I decided I'd like to stay upright. It is indeed a free country so different strokes rules.

    Yeah, I know... I'm long winded... and a bit opinionated. Sorry.

    Longbow

  13. #53
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    My 400 and 500 gr loads for my 450-400-70 Siamese Mauser run 49 - 55 ft/lbs of recoil. When I fire the 500s from a sitting position they roll me over backwards.....lots of fun......

    No application? Obviously you've not hunted elk in a pole patch. Most often the only shot you get is a raking one at best or a Texas heart shot at worst. My 500 gr Lee cast bullet load at 2000+ fps will go from one end of an elk out the other. Besides, I just like to occasionally shoot such loads in the Mauser and heavy 300 gr loads in my M70 375 H&H. Please allow me my hallucinations as it is still a free country.......at least here in Arizona........
    Don't you think a 405 gr trapdoor load or a lighter end lever action level load will do the same. I bet it will be close to it.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    Don't you think a 405 gr trapdoor load or a lighter end lever action level load will do the same. I bet it will be close to it.
    Maybe, maybe not.....but then I'm not shooting a TD or lever action am I so why should I limit myself?. Why would I load a 300 Win mag down to 30-30 ballistics and "bet" it might work? If I wanted to hunt with the 45-70 in a TD, which I have, I would do so. The "application" for hunting elk in pole patches with the heavy loads in the Mauser 45-400-70 is to have the extra performance needed just in case......no need to "bet" on a sure thing. When you got it you can flaunt it so to speak.

    You seem to get the idea these heavy loads are all I shoot in the 450-400-70. That is a mistaken conception. I actually mostly shoot a 400 gr 458483 at Trapdoor velocity of 1350 fps or the Rapine 460250 (275 gr) at 1050 fps more than any other loads........because for busting rocks, dirt clods, sticks and cow pies they are fun, economical and the penetration of the heavy loads is not needed.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    I'm with Larry once again. One of the joys of owning a gun with a strong action in .45-70 (or for that matter any calibre) is that you can download to plink cheaply, have low recoil practice rounds or whatever then load up when wanted or needed.

    I'd have to check ballistic tables but I'm betting that adding 200 - 300 FPS would flatten out trajectories significantly to extend hunting ranges as well so delivering the same terminal ballistics so many like from the factory .45-70 rounds but at 100 yards or so further. Not an issue in heavy forest but certainly could be in alpine meadows or open country anywhere.

    It is nice to have options even if you do not often exploit them.

    Longbow

  16. #56
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    "Economical " and "plink cheaply"??? A 45-70??? I say... MEADOW MUFFINS!!!

    If you are talking factory loaded ammo, then yea, no doubt. The savings going from +P to trapdoor loads would be astronomical!

    I do agree with trajectory issues. That would be an advantage. But if your PBR is 150 yards, could that actually be extended to 200? I'll have to type that into my program.
    Last edited by buckshotshoey; Yesterday at 04:17 PM.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master

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    Right from the Lyman Cast Bullet (SP?) Handbook:

    Powder charge: 9.5 grs. Unique
    Boolit: 457124 366 grs.

    Now I'd call that a plinking load and if you want less recoil and more lead economy try a .457" round ball or collar button boolit (Lyman 457130) at the same weight of about 145 grs. Now that is a real economical plinking load. I use more lead and powder in my .44 mag. (but I could use less and do the same thing).

    As for the trajectory difference between Trapdoor Springfield loads and Ruger #1 loads we get:

    Trapdoor Springfield max load with Lyman 457124 (366 gr.) @ 1800 FPS = drop of 25.55"
    Ruger #1 max load with Lyman 457124 (366 grs.) @ 2100 FPS = drop of 18.55"

    Still doesn't make .45-70 a long range varmint gun but the drop with the hotter load is substantially less than with the Trapdoor Springfield load. To add to that the same boolit over black powder develops only 1328 FPS so drop would be... well the ballistic tables don't go that low but at 1500 FPS the drop is 36.93" so over double that of the hotter load.

    Worth it or not is the shooter's choice. I vote yes... for when I need it and collar button load for when I don't... or something in between.

    I don't even own a .45-70 right now but after this discussion I want one again! I miss mine.

    Longbow

  18. #58
    Boolit Master


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    How about a Rapine 460210 over 6 gr of Bullseye for a plinker/small game load? It's the bullet on the left. It's a real screamer at 990 fps and thumps pesky critters pretty good too!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Larry Gibson; Yesterday at 10:17 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #59
    Boolit Master

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    Larry:

    What is the boolit on the far right? Looks like a Lyman 457125 beside it so it must 550 to 600 grs.? A lot of lead regardless.

    Also, what are the boolits at #3 and 4 from the left? Looks like the 457124 but 3rd from the left has a gas check. Is that a PB gas check or was there a gas check shank version of that boolit? Did I get the boolit right?

    The 457124 was my favourite boolit in my Marlin. It shot very well. It seemed like a perfect weight and quite accurate. I shot a lot of those over BP too. Lots of smoke, lots of fun!

    Longbow

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check