Is H110 a Viable Propellant in Small Cartridges?

[Chev. William]

I've used it in .30 carbine, .300 Blackout, .357and .41 magnums and it's twin W296 and haven't used a magnum primer yet. I love it.

I also use H110/W296 in .30 Carbine reloading along with 2400 which has been Hard to find in my area.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

All i can say is wow! You are into the .251 bullet. Im really pulling for this to work. I love my little 25 auto and am totally into what you are doing with it and why. Thanks for all your hard work. I will continue to follow this .

The .25ACP has been almost ignored as a potential RIFLE cartridge by its CIP and SAAMI Testing Specifications which state that ammunition should be tested in a 6 inch long barrel for pressure testing. This is compared to the .22 Long rifle Cartridge which the same people use a 24 inch barrel for pressure testing.

Historically, the .251" bullet was used Very effectively in the .25 Stevens Rimfire for both Target shooting and "Pot meat" hunting, loadings with Black Powder yielding around 1000-1100fps out of 22-24" barrels.
Sadly, later Smokeless loads were only made to about 960fps so they Lost effectiveness for Target and Hunting in the change.

The Stevens cartridge used a 67 grain lead bullet, inside lubed, and about 10-11 grains of Black powder.

Now NOE Molds has a 'Cherry' Al can use to cut molds for both a 65 grain bullet and a50 grain bullet that will dorp at about .255" diameter and Size after tumble lubing nicely to .251".

Hunter Supply also has a Mold, currently not in their bullet Production, that casts a 63 grain bullet. I pleaded with them formy Last batch of 63 grain bullets and they found an employee who hand cast my order with their mold, for a premium fee.
They currently produce 48 grain bullets tha tare suitable.

Lee did make a Run of Ranch Dog's Design TL256-50-RF, which was designed to fit the 'oversize' bore/groove of his Taurus .25ACP pistol and dropped at about .256"-.257" diameter. I am sure Lee still has their 'Cherry' but would require a "Group Buy" to run it.

The Lyman 260420 mold is listed as a 65 grain bullet but seems to drop at about 72-74 grains nowadays. it does Size down to .251" diameter if lubed before sizing.

Some Jacketed bullets are, or were, mad that size to .251" diameter including Hornady #2510 JSFP 60 grain one. the Jacket stops short of the nose leaving a lead flat point exposed. This bullet was originally made for the .25-20SS cartridge.

Personally, I believe a 6 inch barreled Semi-auto pistol would yield Much Better performance than the Typical 2"-3" barrels usually found. Factory Loaded .25ACP seems to gain velocity up to about a 16" -17" long barrel, so a 'carbine' would get about 1000fps which is close to the original .25 Stevens RF performance.

I have a Relined 1890 Octagon barrel, that was shortened to 20 inches sometime in its past, that I plan to assemble into a .25ACP rifle eventually. It has a 1:14 twist TJ liner installed by John Taylor of Pullaup, WA.

My plan is to chamber it with a straight, parallel wall, .2795" diameter Finish reamer by JGS Precision to give a "Match Grade" fit.

Just waiting on my gunsmith to finish my several other Projects in his hands first.
A .45 Win.Mag. on a .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands now for about 3 years.
A .30 Sheilin 'Match Grade' 1 turn in 10" barrel to fit to a New Manufacture Fulton Armory .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands about 2 years.
A Stevens 'Model 44' CF conversion has been in work by him about 2 years now.

Chev. William

[psweigle]

The .25ACP has been almost ignored as a potential RIFLE cartridge by its CIP and SAAMI Testing Specifications which state that ammunition should be tested in a 6 inch long barrel for pressure testing. This is compared to the .22 Long rifle Cartridge which the same people use a 24 inch barrel for pressure testing.

Historically, the .251" bullet was used Very effectively in the .25 Stevens Rimfire for both Target shooting and "Pot meat" hunting, loadings with Black Powder yielding around 1000-1100fps out of 22-24" barrels.
Sadly, later Smokeless loads were only made to about 960fps so they Lost effectiveness for Target and Hunting in the change.

The Stevens cartridge used a 67 grain lead bullet, inside lubed, and about 10-11 grains of Black powder.

Now NOE Molds has a 'Cherry' Al can use to cut molds for both a 65 grain bullet and a50 grain bullet that will dorp at about .255" diameter and Size after tumble lubing nicely to .251".

Hunter Supply also has a Mold, currently not in their bullet Production, that casts a 63 grain bullet. I pleaded with them formy Last batch of 63 grain bullets and they found an employee who hand cast my order with their mold, for a premium fee.
They currently produce 48 grain bullets tha tare suitable.

Lee did make a Run of Ranch Dog's Design TL256-50-RF, which was designed to fit the 'oversize' bore/groove of his Taurus .25ACP pistol and dropped at about .256"-.257" diameter. I am sure Lee still has their 'Cherry' but would require a "Group Buy" to run it.

The Lyman 260420 mold is listed as a 65 grain bullet but seems to drop at about 72-74 grains nowadays. it does Size down to .251" diameter if lubed before sizing.

Some Jacketed bullets are, or were, mad that size to .251" diameter including Hornady #2510 JSFP 60 grain one. the Jacket stops short of the nose leaving a lead flat point exposed. This bullet was originally made for the .25-20SS cartridge.

Personally, I believe a 6 inch barreled Semi-auto pistol would yield Much Better performance than the Typical 2"-3" barrels usually found. Factory Loaded .25ACP seems to gain velocity up to about a 16" -17" long barrel, so a 'carbine' would get about 1000fps which is close to the original .25 Stevens RF performance.

I have a Relined 1890 Octagon barrel, that was shortened to 20 inches sometime in its past, that I plan to assemble into a .25ACP rifle eventually. It has a 1:14 twist TJ liner installed by John Taylor of Coos Bay.

My plan is to chamber it with a straight, parallel wall, .2795" diameter Finish reamer by JGS Precision to give a "Match Grade" fit.

Just waiting on my gunsmith to finish my several other Projects in his hands first.
A .45 Win.Mag. on a .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands now for about 3 years.
A .30 Sheilin 'Match Grade' 1 turn in 10" barrel to fit to a New Manufacture Fulton Armory .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands about 2 years.
A Stevens 'Model 44' CF conversion has been in work by him about 2 years now.

Chev. William

You,sir, are the MAN! Keep up the good work. I always thought a .25 auto rifle would be a very accurate light handy knock around the woods gun. Prove me right!

[Texas by God]

Chev.William- please don't convert your M1 carbine to .45 WinMag. A company called LeMag tried that in the 1980s with dangerous results. Sorry for the thread drift.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Chev. William]

Chev.William- please don't convert your M1 carbine to .45 WinMag. A company called LeMag tried that in the 1980s with dangerous results. Sorry for the thread drift.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I know of the LeMag problems.
I had planned mine as a NONE Gas Operated "Straight Pull" action for Bench shooting.
Much less chance of out of battery discharge when it is not an auto loader.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

You,sir, are the MAN! Keep up the good work. I always thought a .25 auto rifle would be a very accurate light handy knock around the woods gun. Prove me right!

Psweigle,
Joshua Stevens already showed that in the 1890's with his .25 Stevens RF cartridge and his company rifles chambered for it.
I am merely attempting to make a more modern CF version and a more modern Rifle to use it.
"Ballistics by the Inch" website documents their testing of SAAMI Factory ammunition in Various length Barrels.
Their Posted data seem to indicate Factory ammunition seems to increase in Muzzle velocity As Barrel length increases to about 16 to 17 inches then begins to decrease again. I am guessing the SAAMI type factory loading are 'optimized' by Lawyer Guidance to be Safe in the Weakest and most Abused Firearms ever Existing. I also believe European factories, under CIP Legal Requirements, produce ammunition closer to the Power originally planned into it. CIP Legally Requires Every firearm offered for sale, new or Used, in Europe to be proof tested, inspected and Approved for the sale. Weaker or abused firearms fail this testing.
Chev. William

[psweigle]

Psweigle,
Joshua Stevens already showed that in the 1890's with his .25 Stevens RF cartridge and his company rifles chambered for it.
I am merely attempting to make a more modern CF version and a more modern Rifle to use it.
"Ballistics by the Inch" website documents their testing of SAAMI Factory ammunition in Various length Barrels.
Their Posted data seem to indicate Factory ammunition seems to increase in Muzzle velocity As Barrel length increases to about 16 to 17 inches then begins to decrease again. I am guessing the SAAMI type factory loading are 'optimized' by Lawyer Guidance to be Safe in the Weakest and most Abused Firearms ever Existing. I also believe European factories, under CIP Legal Requirements, produce ammunition closer to the Power originally planned into it. CIP Legally Requires Every firearm offered for sale, new or Used, in Europe to be proof tested, inspected and Approved for the sale. Weaker or abused firearms fail this testing.
Chev. William

My plan had been to use a single shot shotgun, and have it lined with a 16" liner. I would simply have to jave an extractor, ejector, whichever, made. Plenty of meat there to hold up to a hotrodded 25 acp.

[Chev. William]

My plan had been to use a single shot shotgun, and have it lined with a 16" liner. I would simply have to jave an extractor, ejector, whichever, made. Plenty of meat there to hold up to a hotrodded 25 acp.

If you base your rifle on a Shotgun, then make the Barrel insert at least 18 inches long to avoid ANY legal problems down the road.
May I suggest you use a Lothar Walther Barrel Blank (.25ACP/6,35 Browning) in either Cr-Mo Alloy Steel or Stainless Steel with a roughly 9.8 inch to the turn rifling?
Their Barrel blanks are roughly 23.8" long and About 1.1 inch in diameter so there is plenty of 'Meat' to fit to even a 12 gauge shotgun action as an Insert barrel with enough at the Muzzle end to take a retaining/tension nut.

Chev. william

[psweigle]

Yes sir, that was exactly the plan. And the barrel INSIDE the shotgun can be any length, so long as the shotgun barrel itself is at least 18 inches, if i am to understand it correctly.
But of course, this isnt a "need it now" project. I was hoping to see your results before i sunk a couple hundred into a "why did you do that?!?!" gun.Thanks.

[Chev. William]

OK.
Now we Both Need To be Patient waiting for my Gunsmith to get my Projects done in his good time.
He does work well and is often out of the Shop on Movie Projects (much more remunerative of his time; so good for his finances).

Chev. William

[GONRA]

Minilathe Guys - GONRA sez - be sure to purchase one that hasa LEADSCREW, change gears / gearbox for TREADING, etc.
There all sorts of "hobby lathes" marketed for metal verkn' that do NOT have LEADSCREWS!
Don't waste yer $$$$ ...

[Handloader109]

Just for note, I use 10-11 grains of H110/296 in my 22TCM. Bottlenecked .223 cut off. Works fine, LOUD out of the 1911/2011 with a big flash. Appears to be identical to the OEM powder.

[Chev. William]

Back to the original Question of the thread:
It appears the 'consensus' is H110/W296 is not suitable for .25ACP size case volume.

Now how slow a Propellant Is viable in said .25ACP case to get best velocity out
of a 8 inch Barrel?
Or a 10 inch Barrel?
Or a 23 inch Barrel?

Bullseye, BE-86, and Unique are Pistol burn rate propellants that seem to work in short barrels well; but loose something in long barrels.

Would 2400 be better suited for longer barrels with the .25ACP?

Are there other Propellants that might be more suitable in long barrels with the .25ACP?

Chev. William

[Dieselhorses]

Maybe this was mentioned already but velocity may be inhibited in colder temperatures with H110 (below freezing)- Just what I heard.

[Chev. William]

Maybe this was mentioned already but velocity may be inhibited in colder temperatures with H110 (below freezing)- Just what I heard.

As I have no way of testing for that possibility in my local (Southern California) area, I will leave that problem, and its converse (performance at Elevated Temperatures), to others for evaluation.
Chev. William

[am44mag]

I've used H110 for 7.62x25 Tokarev with a 90gr bullet. Works well, and the fireball is impressive. It nearly fills the case. So much so that I'm pretty sure it's a compressed load.

[Chev. William]

I've used H110 for 7.62x25 Tokarev with a 90gr bullet. Works well, and the fireball is impressive. It nearly fills the case. So much so that I'm pretty sure it's a compressed load.

Sounds like you are avoiding the Ignition Problems wiht your Case fill and perhaps a Crimp on the 90 grain Bullet, something like .410 Shot shell loads do.

Chev. William

[am44mag]

Sounds like you are avoiding the Ignition Problems wiht your Case fill and perhaps a Crimp on the 90 grain Bullet, something like .410 Shot shell loads do.

Chev. William

Yep. My gun has a super tight chamber, so I have to crimp them pretty good. I'm also using magnum primers (mainly just to get rid of what I have since I don't use them for anything else).

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[9.3X62AL]

I haven't used H-110/WW-296 for a long time. For my calibers & usages it has a very limited utility. I use Alliant 2400 in large quantities, though. Chev--in our area, check Phillips Wholesale, Inc. in Covina. Even during The Drought, the store's powder inventory was fairly stable. Pricing isn't bad, either. They maintain an online inventory of in-stock powders--Google it up and see what they have.

[farmbif]

I’ve always wanted a semi or lever action 22 hornet or 25-20
What your proposing beats both of them