MidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2Lee PrecisionADvertise here
Inline FabricationStainLess Steel MediaGraf & SonsTitan Reloading

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: 357/38 special and 1000 fps

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    618

    357/38 special and 1000 fps

    The classic ideal was 200 grains as close to 1,000 fps as possible in the 38special and the 357 magnum. That was considered the best black bear busting, criminal busting round around. Garunteed to bust the pelvis.

    What has my ideas going is, just what sort of recoil does that generally make for a 6 inch barrel with lead and a 40 ounce gun?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Randy C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    617
    I don't think I would want to be that close to a pissed off bear.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    tja6435's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Westcliffe, CO 81252
    Posts
    540
    I have 200gr LFN loaded into 38spl cases at approx 1000fps. I mainly use this load for my 77/357, it'll hit the same hole over and over at 115y if I do my part. I'll run some through my 6" GP100 today and let you know how recoil is. I'll also let you know that the specifics of my load are as well.
    8500' Wet Mountain Valley, Colorado

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    3,773
    Let's start with the load first: Getting a 200 grain bullet to anywhere near 1000 fps in a 38 Special is going to be way beyond SAAMI specs for Standard 38 Special pressures and probably beyond +P pressures at anything over 900 fps.
    It IS possible within .357 magnum SAAMI specs. So with that in mind, we're looking at .357 magnum loads at a minimum.

    As for recoil, what some folks consider to be severe others don't mind. I don't know how to quantify that in a meaningful way.

    Black Bears - if you need to shoot a black bear with a handgun, any handgun, something has gone terribly wrong.

    All other uses; the standard weight for caliber projectiles became the "standard weight" projectiles for a reason. There's some room for variations but when you start to get way outside of those standard weight ranges, there's a price to be paid. 200 grains is too heavy for the 38 Special (despite what the British believed) and 200 grains is getting very heavy for .357 magnum. You're trading mass for velocity and there's a practical limit within any caliber where the pressures get too high and the velocity gets too low.

    There's nothing magical about heavy for caliber projectiles, you're just trading mass for velocity. With a .357 magnum cartridge and human adversaries - I think 125-158 grains will get the job done. 180 grains would be about as heavy as I would want to go and frankly, I'd rather be closer to 125 -158 grains in that role.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    2ndAmendmentNut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,706

    357/38 special and 1000 fps

    You ask about recoil with a 200gr? Recoil is stout but not bad. In my experience 357mag didnít benefit from a bullet heavier than 170gr range.

    I used to be obsessed with heavy for caliber loads in various guns. 147gr 9mm, 190gr+ 357mags, 250gr 45AR/Auto, 300-325gr 45colts. Really liked the Ranch Dog 190gr in 38-357, that is until I tried it on a pig. I had better results with more normal range loads between 150gr-160gr. After the experience with the pig I started testing all my loads with paper and water mediums. All of my handgun calibers preformed better in terms of penetration and expansion with the weights the calibers were designed around. Your mileage may vary.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by 2ndAmendmentNut; 10-04-2017 at 09:33 AM.
    "I don't want men who miss." -Capt. Leander H. McNelly

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    422
    Black Bears - if you need to shoot a black bear with a handgun, any handgun, something has gone terribly wrong.
    Well, some of us prefer to hunt big game with the shortgun. All big game.

  7. #7
    Moderator



    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    9,168
    I've loaded self-defense rounds in 38 spl with 175gr SWC boolits.
    When loaded to +p, recoil is nasty in my Mod 36

    and I've loaded the Ranch Dog 190gr in 357mag...I never Hot rodded them, but would expect excessive recoil.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    11,379
    I would not shoot a 200 grain bullet going 1,000 fps out of any 38 Special handgun. I would shoot that load out of a 357 Magnum handgun.

    Rifles chambered for these rounds are entirely different critters.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    HB, CA, FOR NOW
    Posts
    3,931
    No 200 grain bullet ever left the factory as a 1000 fps 38 Special. Those old "Super Police" loads were having a good day if they made 700 FPS. They stank as personal defense loads. I personally have seen evidence photos from a 60's incident where none of 5 rounds penetrated the windshield. That is not a good place to go.
    Now out of a 357 things get somewhat more interesting. I had some 195 grain WFN's given to me that I launched from my 20 inch Rossi. 13.5 grains of H-110 drove that boolit at nearly 1400 FPS. However recoil was noticeable. Not crippling, not disabling, but noticeable. I think It would have been painful In a 40 oz. revolver, at least for my elderly wrists and palms.
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    401
    I have some Buffalo Bore 180g hard cast that I use as a hunting load in my Rossi 92. They are supposed to be doing around 1800fps from a rifle barrel. Recoil is not really that noticeable in the rifle, but perception is relative.

    Haven't tried them yet in my Uberti Cattleman, mainly because they're too expensive to waste. lol

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    221
    I used to be obsessed with heavy for caliber loads in various guns. 147gr 9mm, 190gr+ 357mags, 250gr 45AR/Auto, 300-325gr 45colts. Really liked the Ranch Dog 190gr in 38-357, that is until I tried it on a pig.
    I used to load 255gr. LSWCs in my .45 Auto, for shooting bowling pins. I used enough Unique to reliably operate the slide with a stock recoil spring (M.V. probably didn't break 700f/s), and those slugs PITCHED the bowling pins off the table when hit. This load wouldn't be my FIRST choice for self-defense in a .45 ACP, but it'd be far from useless.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,824
    A 200 gr loaded to 1000 fps in a .38 special is a good way to :
    1. Ruin a good gun
    2.hurt yourself
    3. Hurt an innocent bystander when your snubby goes kaboom.
    Dumb idea.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Bloomfield, Nebraska
    Posts
    5,004
    The 38-44 heavy duty ran a 158 grain bullet at 900 fps or there about. From my 5" barrel it is running 890 and recoil in moderate. The original 357 pushed a 158 grain bullet at 1400 fps from a 6" Model 28 and modern loads are closer to 1250. The Original 357 loads ( I have some my Dad bought in 1950) were very high pressure and were real ear busters and very difficult to hol for repeat shots. You needed lots of practice to shoot them. I shot on the range with the FBI when they were shooting the later 1250 rounds and they were handful from the 3" barrels they were using.

    No way is a 38 special going to shoot a 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps there isn't such a load listed in any manual I have seen .
    The 200 grain WW Super Police ran about 750 fps from a 6" revolver and only 650 from a 4". Whoever gave you those figures was dreaming.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    10,855
    Lots of 357 Magnum revolver shooting with 190-200 grainers (Lyman #358430) in the 1000-1200 FPS ballpark. In L-frame and N-frame S&Ws or the Ruger Blackhawk, 1000 FPS is moderate in recoil.......1200 FPS is more noticeable (esp, in my 4" 686), but not wrenching. In these larger S&W platforms, 1200 FPS is my max loading with these bullets. FWIW, in my Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5" I have run #358430 to a bit over 1400 FPS, and it remained accurate . Recoil was substantial but not excessive. Getting the loads to these levels safely took some gymnastics I won't pursue here--I am way off-topic already.

    200 grainers from a J- or K-frame 357 Magnum @ 1000 FPS........no bloomin' thank you! Been there/done that with a Model 19 x 2.5"--not pleasant.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    North Central U.S.A.
    Posts
    343
    Have done that with a S&W M-66 four inch and M-28 six inch with the 357 Mag. Recoil isn't as bad as one might think at over 1000 fps but accuracy sucked in both guns with the 200 gr RN either from Lyman 358430 or Magnus cast 200 gr. If you shoot any 44 mag handguns the 200 grain loads in the 357 are ***** cats.

    2shot

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Bookworm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Central Oklahoma, on a dirt road.
    Posts
    510
    It's serendipitous that this came up at this time.

    I have just finished developing a full-power field load with the Lyman 358156 for my 357 Mags, and am ready to turn my attention to some Lee 358-200 RF that I cast up.

    I think I'll pass on the 38 Spl, but I'm thinking of using 38 brass in a 357 Mag load.
    "Varium et mutabile semper femina." - Virgil
    Man, ain't it the truth....

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Kansas US of A
    Posts
    1,241
    I am also a handgun hunter. I take no offense to the comment, and won't ask why. I know what can be done with a wheel gun and single shot pistols, as do many other folks.

    The only reference the OP makes to any type of revolver is the weight. A 6" GP100 in 357 will stand a lot of heavy loads with no ill effects. I won't say a 200 is optimum weight,mthough once again depends on the platform. I run a 220 LBT that stays super sonic all the way to 200m, this out of an FA. A lot depends on the platform.

    I am with the majority on the 38 subject. To get to where the OP wants you are going to have to use a faster powder, thus bumping pressures way up there.

    For my hunting use with a 357, I have found a 170-185 being about the best for my rigs, rifle or pistol.
    Jeff

  18. #18
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    2,294
    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
    It's serendipitous that this came up at this time.

    I have just finished developing a full-power field load with the Lyman 358156 for my 357 Mags, and am ready to turn my attention to some Lee 358-200 RF that I cast up.

    I think I'll pass on the 38 Spl, but I'm thinking of using 38 brass in a 357 Mag load.
    Do not use .357 data in a .38 case without reducing the charge. The smaller volume will increase pressure.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    HeavyMetal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Orange county, Ca.
    Posts
    3,862
    Colonel Cooper used to suggest a stiff load of 2400 under a 358156, he said this load in a 6 inch 38 special would get the round into low end 357 territory at 1000 feet per second.

    Now my current Lyman third edition Pistol and Revolver handbook show a load of 8.8 grains 2400 ( this is Plus P) doing 953 FPS out of a 4 inch 38 special, My thinking is the extra 2 inches of barrel will allow said load to hit the 1000 FPS mark.

    However I would not attempt this with a 200 grain bullet! Nor would I depend on this load to deal with a bear of any size!

    Stick with a 150 to 155 grain bullet if you want to try this 2400 load, I hate gas check bullets and have never had a good experience with the 358156 and have tried many different versions of this mold over the years and kept going back to my ever loving RCBS 150 Grain PB Kieth type SWC!

    At this point I should mention the reason I bought my 1895 Marlin in 45-70 was to deal with the possible "interference" of a bear during my wandering in the woods or fishing and never felt the need for anything less and if I did it wouldn't be a 38 special!

    HM

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    618
    I admit I read to much old articles, and the 38 caliber pushing a bullet as close to 1,000 fps and in the near 200 grain as possible weight was called the ideal black bear buster round. Garunteed penetration.

    Yeah, handguns may not be the BEST option, but a person isn't able to carry a model 98 or 24/47 all day long just in case a bear comes along...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check