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Thread: Making of a "garden gun"

  1. #41
    Boolit Man Steppapajon's Avatar
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    It is raining today so I decided it would be a good time to blue the insert. Click image for larger version. 

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    I used Blue Wonder cold bluing kit on it. It turned out very nice. I just hope it will last.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    A good coating Of JPW and it should be ok.
    It wont get handled much.
    But if you want, At Home, try to Slow Rust Blue it,
    Or even Dura Bake it.
    Lots of options based on your needs

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    Seeing this picture is what got me interested in garden guns:
    Attachment 205352
    Ah yes, it is a fairly well-known type, which should have worked well with the cartridges for it was intended. I believe the patent was originally Warnant's, but the drawing shows in the first of these web pages seems to show a sort only a sort of rolling-block device behind the breechblock. I'd say it needs solid steel there, as yours appears to do, to be really safe.

    That one is an 8mm. centrefire, probably very much like several revolver rounds which preceded the inside-lubed .32S&W, of larger case diameter. I would suspect that more were bored for the 9mm. rimfire shotshell, actually closer to 8mm., which is still made by Fiocchi and available in the US.

    which http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...rnant%20fr.htm

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...ulien%20fr.htm

  4. #44
    In the relatively modern Webley bolt-action the 9mm. smokeless Fiocchi was my first firearm with actual powder coming into it. I found it quite effective on pigeons at about fifteen yards, provided you didn't have any quixotic prejudices against shooting sitting. Some of the Flobert type might be a bit weak in the breech for that, but I don't have much doubt about a good example of the Warnant action like the OP's, provided that the firing-pin isn't a loose fit in its channel.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    If I were to build one, (and I just might) I would try to use a very common casing. The cut down 223 case looks very promising. I don't know the prices and availability of most brass. I think that a 45 colt would also be a good case for it. Or a 44 magnum. Even a 38 Special. And with such a small amount of powder a 45 ACP may even work. It would be a noble endeavor though. Low powered quiet shot guns really are the answer for pests in the suburbs. My brother used a 22lr shot gun for ground squirrels etc for many years. But they have very limited range. Maybe 10 ft for something as tough as a ground squirrel. Whereas perhaps a 45LC or 38 special would shoot a bit bigger shot and be effective at maybe 25 ft. Heck you might even be able to build an air-shot-gun. That would be cool also.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  6. #46
    For shot the .357 Maximum would be excellent, but the cases are more expensive than the Magnum, and I'm not sure of them staying on the market. Still, in that application a hundred cases would last close to forever.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    IF you want to use a Modern case, why not a .32? The .32 H&R Magnum cases and the .327 Federal Magnum cases are available on the Market As New Empty Brass and do also swage down nicely to .32 Colt Body diameters if you would like an .32 Colt Extended case (1.15" long). .327 Fed Mag brass Starts out 1.20" long.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-19-2017 at 06:56 PM.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    How much 3Fg black would the .327 case hold, I wonder?

    I would guess about 15grains, which should be subsonic with a .32-20 100-105 grain LFN...

    A shame to have all that case capacity not to do something traditionally useful with it.

    .32-15-100x1.2" MR&RR aka Modern Rook & Rabbit Rifle
    Last edited by Outpost75; 10-19-2017 at 02:56 PM.
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  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Well, theoretically, a .25ACP will hold 6.7 grains of H2O and that allows, by my Experimental notes, a Gross Loose charge of:
    5.14 Grains of 3f Swiss;
    5.48 grains of 4f Swiss; and
    5.61 grains of Null B Swiss.
    I did not have Swiss 1f or 2f at the time.

    If the math holds in Real Life:
    a 32 H&R MAG of 1.075" length holds 17.3 grains of H2O (about 2.582 times that of the .25ACP);
    a .327 Fed Mag of 1.200" length holds 19.3 grains of H2O (about 2.880 times that of the .25ACP).

    Then theoretically a .32 H&R would hold:
    About 13.3 grains of loose 3f Swiss;
    About 14.1 grains of loose 4f Swiss;
    About 14.4 grains of loose Null B Swiss.

    and Theoretically a .327 Fed Mag would hold:
    About 14.8 grains of loose 3f Swiss;
    About 15.8 grains of loose 4f Swiss;
    About 16.1 grains of loose Null B Swiss.

    So "Outpost75's" construct might be '.32-16-100x1.2' and that for the .32 H&R case '.32-14-100x1.075'.

    To add to that listing, the .25ACP with BP would most likely be '.25-50-5' (caliber-bullet weight-BP powder weight), or even '.25-60-5' with a 60 grain Hornady #2510 sized .250". Alternatively, '25-5-50' (Caliber-BP powder weight-Bullet weight) or '25-5-60'.

    NOTE: a BP charged .25ACP is not good for most semi-automatic pistol actions.
    It Does make a fine cloud of smoke out of a revolver though.

    Chuckling,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 12-21-2017 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Corrected Typo

  10. #50
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Chev.Wm.

    Thanks, it is reassuring to know that the aged brain cell SWAG wasn't so far off. Very enlightening.

    I am quite satisfied with my reworked/relined/restored Army & Navy C.S. .32 S&W Long, and have no need for anything in .327, but the youngsters may find in interesting mental masturbation.

    Thank you Sir!

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  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    The old brass radio aerials were usually 6mm to 1/4" ID.
    A golf club shaft of the stepped type has an ID very close to the size of a .32 S&W boolit and the next step is a perfect ID fit for a S&W chamber. Too thin for me to trust but obviously some tough steel. A method used to build zip guns in .32 and .38 involved encasing the thin walled tubing in wood and wrapping it tightly with dental floss , or in the old days silk thread.

    Best for a .22 short barrel is a stub of crosman .22 pellet gun barrel. Actually very accurate.

    All such experiments were of course done by persons unknown on a yacht in international waters long ago enough for any possible statutes of limitations to apply.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    I keep a 410 shotgun at the back door with an assortment of shells in a stock sleeve .It's not a garden gun but an effective pesky critter getter. One of the most useful loads is about the same as a 38 special shot shell, about 4 gr. of unique, a couple of cardboard wads and 45 grs. of fine shot with another wad glued over the shot. You can cut the crimp off old shells and use them. The range and pattern is much better than the same load from a pistol.

    The last victim was a fat copperhead my little dog spied under the van.

    I bought the little H & R on a whim and have really enjoyed tinkering with it, you can do mild to wild with shot and balls.

    Dave

  13. #53
    Boolit Man Quiettime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    A .223 case cut down to the desired length would be close to the 9mm and be centerfire. But lack of the rim would limit it in some guns.
    38 Spl is almost the same diameter as .223, in fact I use a 38 Spl die bored through the top to push-through size 5.56 cases to eliminate damaged or oversized rims
    And just for your info... casting with a single cavity is about as close as you can get to zero production, while still having some production. -- Whitespider

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    Sighs.

    Adds "410 single shot shotgat" to the want list.
    And "Lots of used brass to turn into 410 shotshells" too.

    You folks are a bad influence!

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    To All,

    The more that I've thought about building my own Garden Gun, the MORE that I consider that "steppapajon's idea" of the old/cheap or even FREE range pickup .30-30 cases as the basis for that home-brew firearm is best.
    (I suspect that making or converting the receiver for a rimmed cartridge will be easier to construct than a semi-rimmed or rimless case would.)

    The proposed .30-30 based shot-shell case could be any length from 1" to 1.44", W/O bothering with "blowing out" the case to achieve a longer overall length. - I further believe that having a Garden Gun case longer than 1.4" is not a great deal different than using a regular 2.5" .410 shot-shell.

    Note: For my proposed Garden Gun, I'll be watching the "junk tables" at our local gun-shows for a .310 Aussie Cadet single-shot action, as those will be easy to make a .30-30 based firearm from.

    just my musings/suggestion, tex
    Last edited by texasnative46; 12-19-2017 at 03:41 AM. Reason: punctuation

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Another option would be .45-70 brass, tho that maybe is "too big" for this niche.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    I think the Army at one time issued a .45-70 based shot shell for the old trap door rifles. To forage small game in the field.

    I think it used a paper or hollow wood shot capsule.
    There were .44-40 based shotshells as well.

    The .38/.357 snake loads are much like a garden gun load.

  18. #58
    Boolit Man Steppapajon's Avatar
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    Tex,
    If you ever find that Aussie Cadet please post the build. I think it would be a match made in heaven. Very cool little guns.
    I look forward to seeing it one day. SPJ

  19. #59
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Here is a WW1 period H&R .44 Garden Gun on the small action which recently sold on GunBroker for only $135, the seller says that chamber length is 2 inches. A very similar one I bought some years ago had already been rechambered to .410 2-1/2" and I had John Taylor further rechamber it to take 3" shells when making the extra rifled .44-40 barrel for it.

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  20. #60
    Boolit Master


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    That H&R 410/44 is the gun I killed my first dove with. Lost it in a family shuffle many years ago, but replaced it with a gun show find. Quite graceful little shoulder arms.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check