CCW ammo, factory vs handloads

[robertbank]

Whoever it is, he is a boob.

Eh you might be on to something.

Take Care

Bob
ps The NHL season starts tonight. The world order has been restored. "Here we go Oilers...Here we Go"

[DerekP Houston]

Got a bit off track from my original question but still all good input. Thanks gents. My new turret press arrived monday and I'll make sure to clean the primer pockets and seat them a bit more forcefully prior to loading up my rounds. I'm the first to admit it was probably user error, I got addicted to the progressive press quicker than I realized. I've also got a spare lcp 380 to test the same rounds in to see if it was my gun or not.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

.....

[tazman]

P&P,

In AZ ... If it is a justified self-defense shooting (if you are not convicted of the crime), or you are not charged criminally ... NO civil case can be brought against you for the shooting.

I wish other states were that enlightened.

Derek---I have been thinking about the 380 as a self defense round since you started this thread. If you are comfortable with the gun and have reliable ammunition, I see no reason not to carry it. After all, bullet placement is more important than the size or power of the projectile. I think you will be able to work out the issues you have with the primers. After that it is all in getting confidence in the gun.

[9.3X62AL]

I wish other states were that enlightened.

Roger that. Comprehensive tort reform nation-wide is long overdue.

[JBinMN]

I wish other states were that enlightened.

Derek---I have been thinking about the 380 as a self defense round since you started this thread. If you are comfortable with the gun and have reliable ammunition, I see no reason not to carry it. After all, bullet placement is more important than the size or power of the projectile. I think you will be able to work out the issues you have with the primers. After that it is all in getting confidence in the gun.

The bolded is what is my families goal when we shoot. Particularly our .380 pistol. We practice using those little paper plates @ 10 yds most of the time, then work on close ups at speed. For any who might not be familiar with those little plates I think they are called "cake" or "snack" plates and are about 2/3rds or half the size of the regular sized ones. Point being that they are approximately the size of a persons head. More than one of us can hit most rounds in the size of a baseball more times than not, in the middle of the plate, with some "fliers' on occasion. I am not saying that to boast, but to say that the target is about the size of a attackers head, and bullet placement into that area should an attacker decide to try to attack, would likely end the confrontation. If they are not being hit in the head, they are likely gonna be concerned about that & ducking & most likely forgetting all about advancing further.

IMO, the goal is discourage/end the confrontation. Of course , there are better shooters & maybe a lot better options of firearm to consider. But, as Tazman said, "Bullet placement" goes a long way, regardless of how distant the target & the circumstances of preventing /ending an assault. Even up close, & little as it is, that .380 is better than nothing, & even a determined attacker would likely take note of it. A little dog can bite , just as much as a big one.

If one thinks about some crazed drugged up person attacking them, I try to consider , "what are the chances?" that it is going to happen & "How did I get myself into that situation in the first place?", to let them become a danger to me or mine. Situational awareness is just as important as bullet/shot placement also, IMO. Perhaps staying away from places that would allow for this to happen would be the best bet. & if one considers that this could happen in ones home, then, the distance is closer & your shot placement should be easier than at 10 yds.. I reckon if you are still concerned get a more powerful carry firearm.

----------------

Although I have strayed a mite form the OP subject, I will add to try to get things back on track.

I do not carry on a regular basis, although I have something close to hand at all times, just not on my person. At home, or even when traveling. I do not put myself in places I would need to CC, and I live rural, so the likelihood of issues that might involve me in a bad situation with others is quite limited. What might be at hand though, may or may not have factory made ammo in it. I am of the mindset that if it comes down to self defense (and defense of others), it does not matter what I have to use, if I am justified in my actions. It does not matter to me if it is a homemade club or a baseball bat, a store bought cane or a walking stick I made from something I picked up on a nature walk, Or, any item I decide to use to do the self defense actions. Including using ones body. Any judge should understand this, or the jury should have that explained to them, if the subject of factory or home made ammo being used was every to come up in a self defense trial. [ If I am on that jury & someone starts bringing that comparison up, if the self defense was justified, the method or implements used in that self defense are irrelevant to my thinking & the trial would probably end up with a not guilty verdict... Or, a hung jury or jury nullification if I was the only one to think like I do.].

If someone is concerned enough that they want to make the decision to carry factory or home made, I would suggest that you carry factory if you think it would be an issue of some kind, based on the popular thinking & laws where you are at.

If you are concerned with "your" loading/reloading of carry ammo, then you will either have to be very diligent & precise in your choice of components & assembly. Then test fire some out of those your load batch & then maybe use the rest for your carry ammo to trust your own loads... ( load 50 & test 25. or whatever suits ya. If you have no failures with the tested rounds, you likely will likely not have any for the rest of that batch. The "odds" will help ya decide. Then repeat this whole operation when ya need to turn over the ammo for newer stock.)


Or, trust the factory rounds to be better than your own loads. ( I would still do the "test". Even factories have issues from time to time. Same as with firearms, some are lemons & some are well made, right? )

G'luck in your decision(s)!

[Petrol & Powder]

P&P,

In AZ ... If it is a justified self-defense shooting (if you are not convicted of the crime), or you are not charged criminally ... NO civil case can be brought against you for the shooting.

It may be a very brief case under those circumstances but there is nothing that can be done to stop a civil suit.

Just because a civil action is likely to be unsuccessful doesn't mean it cannot be attempted.
Just because a civil case will be dismissed very early in the process, doesn't mean that process will never be commenced.

I know it may seem like semantics but the proper way to phase that is to say, "no successful civil case may be brought against you".

Most, but certainly not all, attorneys will avoid filing frivolous lawsuits that are highly likely to be unsuccessful. Most, but not all, attorneys will avoid exposing themselves to sanctions for filing frivolous lawsuits. And then there is the pro se (unrepresented) plaintiff that charges ahead on his/her own without the assistance of counsel.

I have been on the defense side of civil suits and even when the actions of the plaintiff are outrageously beyond the law, the actions are still commenced. Those actions do not survive long ......but they absolutely begin.

I'm not trying to play word games with you or anger you. A law suit that is prohibited by statute may die a VERY quick death in court but it will still get to court.

[DerekP Houston]

It may be a very brief case under those circumstances but there is nothing that can be done to stop a civil suit.

Just because a civil action is likely to be unsuccessful doesn't mean it cannot be attempted.
Just because a civil case will be dismissed very early in the process, doesn't mean that process will never be commenced.

I know it may seem like semantics but the proper way to phase that is to say, "no successful civil case may be brought against you".

Most, but certainly not all, attorneys will avoid filing frivolous lawsuits that are highly likely to be unsuccessful. Most, but not all, attorneys will avoid exposing themselves to sanctions for filing frivolous lawsuits. And then there is the pro se (unrepresented) plaintiff that charges ahead on his/her own without the assistance of counsel.

I have been on the defense side of civil suits and even when the actions of the plaintiff are outrageously beyond the law, the actions are still commenced. Those actions do not survive long ......but they absolutely begin.

I'm not trying to play word games with you or anger you. A law suit that is prohibited by statute may die a VERY quick death in court but it will still get to court.

Again, this is why I keep Texas Law Shield up to date.

If you "use" a firearm or any legal weapon in Texas under the Texas Law Shield Firearms Legal Defense Program, our program attorneys will represent you in any legal proceeding (criminal or civil), for zero additional attorneys' fees. This includes all criminal charges arising from a "use" of a gun or any legal weapon.

Police Investigations
Grand Jury Proceedings
Trial, both Criminal and Civil

[9.3X62AL]

From the "MY EYES GLAZE OVER" Department........

Rick Hodges.......did you see where Our Favorite Shill was beating his gums AGAIN about the LV/Route 91 atrocity? Ugghh.

[Rick Hodges]

From the "MY EYES GLAZE OVER" Department........

Rick Hodges.......did you see where Our Favorite Shill was beating his gums AGAIN about the LV/Route 91 atrocity? Ugghh.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people need to seek attention....there seems to be a terrible hole in their psyche that needs filling. They are just incapable of seeing what damned fools they are.

[sawinredneck]

Someone please pm me on this "shill", curiosity is killing me I guess.

[9.3X62AL]

The Shill loves to litigate and petition bulletin board sites over negative commentaries. Tread lightly.

[bob208]

in pa we have stand your ground and castle doctrine. which means if it is a good shoot then the one shot nor his family can not sue.

many many years ago I loaded for some police forces. this was in the wheel gun days. they had mag handguns but were not allowed to use mag ammo. so they got a lot of skeeter skelton loads. never a problem about being hand loads.

[birch]

I am a fairly good handloader and I've experienced all sorts of bullet ad powder combinations that are much better than factory ammo.

With that being said, don't think a 25 round box of Hornady critical defense can be beat. I load my wife's SIG 238 with as many of those babies I can stuff in the mag with one on the flight deck. The folks at Hornady have achieved self defense ammo perfection. I practice with my 1\3 as expensive hand loads and send her out the door with the best ammo money can buy---NOT MINE!!!!

[DerekP Houston]

Happy to say 100+ rounds with out a hiccup through my bersa thunder. Hornady XTP were slightly more accurate and .2gr less powder than the max load for 90gr golddots. Looks like a thorough cleaning and slowing down my loading process fixed my issues.

[dragon813gt]

Looks like a thorough cleaning and slowing down my loading process fixed my issues.

Good to hear. Finding and fixing an issue is always satisfying :beer:

[kysunfish]

Staying to the light strikes thing I will say that the piece of glass on my bench has helped me detect a lot of high primers over the years.

[robertbank]

Staying to the light strikes thing I will say that the piece of glass on my bench has helped me detect a lot of high primers over the years.

Good tip....thanks.

I try to avoid S&B brass for this reason. I am not sure if they have a crimp on their primers or just tight primer pockets but I find using S&B brass a high primer farm.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

"......a high primer farm." Stealing this. Too funny, Bob.

[Hans Gruber]

The only "risky" part is reliable function. IF you are an accomplished hand loader it is quite possible to produce ammo that will fire with the same degree of reliability as factory ammo.
As for "liability" in terms of using a hand load, that's about 99% "Hollywood hogwash" and 1% folklore. The fact is, if one is covered by "justifiable self defense" it matters NOT what was the means used to stop the attacker....a bullet, a car, an axe, a sword, a light saber, etc. ANY "argument" that can possibly be presented by an assistant DA that you deliberately loaded "cruel and inhuman" ammo can be equally applied to the simple fact that you "deliberately" PURCHASED "cruel and inhuman" ammo....for what it's worth.

Over the years I have begun to seriously rethink the entire concept of non-magnum handgun ammo and have found myself preferring to carry FMJ because I KNOW it is more likely than expanding ammo to pass far enough into and through a recipient to hit all that can be hit. Virtually ALL modern self defense ammo is underloaded using bullets engineered to "pass" the "gel test"...IMO. Go over to Lucky Gunner and view their EXTENSIVE results of firing a wide variety of handgun SD ammo and let your own eyes be the judge.

I can buy a 50rd box of Remington .40 S&W 165 grain FMJ for less than $18, and it develops an honest 484 lb-ft of kinetic energy. In a "performance" load I'm looking at $25-$50 for 20 rounds of ammo that generates less than 400 lb-ft of KE - often less than 350 lb-ft. Granted the FMJ round does not create the same impressive temporary expansion "bubble" but after the gel settles down, a truncated cone FMJ does create a respectable "permanent crush cavity." It also tends to go THROUGH a lot more.

The "interesting" thing about gelatin test is that they are completely UNLIKE an actual human. There is no "bone" to be passed through and this is more than significant. So regardless of what ANY gel test indicates, even today, there is no proper data that validates the effectiveness of an expanding slug over a FMJ slug.

Having said this, velocity IS a very good indicator of terminal effectiveness. Even a non-expanding pistol round, driven fast enough, creates a significant "expansion bubble" in gelatin...

For well over 100 years now, various militaries and police agencies around the world have relied on FMJ handgun ammo and if it were totally dismal in terminal performance, by now there would have been a global push toward something more effective. The fact is, if a pistol bullet hits something that matters...the recipient goes down. If it does not the recipient continues the fight. The exact SAME FACT applies to HP and expanding, low-velocity ammo....