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Thread: Stuck ball AND Ramrod end fitting....UGH !!

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Stuck ball AND Ramrod end fitting....UGH !!

    Howdy

    Although I have had several black powder pistols and rifles since the late 70's, I may no longer shoot them.

    While in a pawn shop 2 weeks ago, I spotted a Lyman .50 cal. Trade Rifle that looked good. "I want this one for that wall that has no BP rifle or pistol hanging thereon." The deal was good and walked out the door.

    When running a cleaning rod down the barrel a few minutes ago, I realized there was an unknown ball down there. I got the worm screw out of my old BP tackle box kit and ran it down the barrel on the end of the ram rod. Screwed it in. OK so far...............

    Then, I started pulling. When the ball got to about where the rear sight is, the brass end of the ram rod came off.

    So now: There is a ball, ball screw, AND the brass ram rod end down there.
    I have no idea if there is a powder charge or not.

    Does the end of the breech come off on this model?

    I think I need help on this one.

    Thanks to all in advance. Bo in western NC

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    yes the breach comes off if you have the tools. if you don't and try it with just a bench vise and big wrench you will mess it up. I will say it first you could fine a grease fitting that screws into the nipple hole and pump it out with a grease gun. or you could try to blow it out with compressed air or a co2 ball discharger. just remember those nipple threads are metric.

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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    if you can............... try compressed air first.............. aim at a pillow so you can catch the offending ball. you will need 125 psi.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    .

    If the compressed air doesn't do the job, I would suggest you R&R the nipple so some BP can be drizzled into the ignition channel, and hopefully the powder chamber (pouring/tapping the gun/pouring/tapping/etc/etc), then ram the entire mess back down as far as it will go - and shoot the obstructions out.

    .
    Now I lay me down to sleep
    A gun beside me is what I keep
    If I awake, and you're inside
    The coroner's van is your next ride

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I have shot many a stuck balls and ramrods out. but now with the advent of certain inlines that use smokeless I have become very leery of doing it with a gun that I don't know how it is loaded.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    idahoron's Avatar
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    Use a grease gun. Screw a zerk into the nipple hole and pump the grease. I did it to a barrel that had a bullet stuck for over 20 years. I lubed the barrel first. When the grease hit the barrel it built a lot of pressure and shot down the barrel almost to the end. I bet I didn't put in more than a table spoon full of grease.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    I have taken same deal out of many TC muzzel loaders, even one that a goof ran a bronze shotgun
    brush and pulled it and ramrod tip off in barrel. Take out nipple and work in as much 3F as you can
    make sure you reseat the obstruction, replace nipple and shoot it out. Never fails, it's worked for
    me on rifle that was loaded for over 100yrs. I have had cases I had to do process more than once.
    Back in 70s when ML seasons started in Ohio I was pulling ball so often my dad made a slap hammer out of 3/8 stainless rod. We made a second rod as a pilot that we had 1/8" drill bit secured with set screws with T handle, that we hand turned to pilot the screw. We started out with
    Mostly 50 cal guns, we ended up making a smaller set for guns that the 3/8" rod was to big in dia.
    for the bore.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    IIRC - that rifle has a patent breech. You should be able to remove the barrel and with the proper breech plug wrench, unscrew the breech plug - if you don' have the breech plug wrench, as mentioned, you could bugger up the barrel. Before pulling the nipple and tying to get powder in, I'd be thinking about whether or not there is a charge in it and if so, just what and how much. You don't have any idea (since you didn't put it in) what the ball is or what is behind it. People do stupid things and the last thing you'd want to do is to proceed to "blow it out" with powder only to find that some fool put smokeless in it. Overly cautious? Yep, I am. You'd be surprised what I've found in barrels over the years.

    If you could locate a gunsmith who will work on it, it should be a simple task to remove the breech plug and dump out whatever is behind the ball/obstruction, then use a brass rod to push it back out the muzzle.

    Or, carefully use the compressed air method or put a grease zero in the nipple hole (of the correct thread size) and keep pumping grease until it pushes it out.

    I had a very similar problem a few years ago. I traded (over the internet) a cap and ball pistol to a guy for a Traditions Crockett rifle - I wanted a small 32 cal to play with. The trade was made and the rifle looked great but when I ran an oil patch down the barrel, I felt something odd about half way down - nothing bad but it caught my attention. I cleaned the rifle well and fired it perhaps a half dozen times, wet patching between shots. When I went to load it, my patched ball came to a sudden halt about halfway down where I had felt something "funny". Mmmmm . . . well I'll just pull it with a ball xcrew. Yea, right. I had the same thing happen. I had a Delrin rod with a brass tip that was pinned and even pinned, it pulled off. I tried everything and I've been working on BP muzzleloaders for over 50 years. I was tempted to just pull the barrel, pull the nipple and tip it so the charge was near the breech - tie it to a tire and put in a pice of fuze - but I knew I'd probably blow the barrel. I tried pushing the ball to the breech and it wouldn't budge. I tried compressed air and got nowhere. Finally I decided to pull the breech plug. Mind you, I have the proper tools but I could not get it loose for love nor money. I laid the barrel on the bench and then I noticed something odd. In the area where the ball was stuck, the barrel had the slightest of bends to it - not seen when you sighted down the barrel. Put a straight edge on it and sure enough, it was there.

    I soaked the powder charge by filling the breech end of the barrel with brake fluid and plugged the nipple hols - let it stand for a few days and still could not get the breech plug to budge. I'm not a big fan of Traditions to begin with and after seeing the problem with the barrel, I knew I wasn't going to keep it as a shooter. I finally decided to scrap the barrel as I didn't want to make my problem somebody else. I cut the barrel up so it could never be used again and sold the rest of the rifle on fleabay - and got more for the parts than I had tied up $$ wise in the trade.

    I'm not saying that is the solution to your problem though - just showing that stuff doses happen. The trade rifle is not any different than on the LGPR IIRC so the breech plug shouldn't be an issue to get taken out if nothing else works. And, as I've preached for years - things such as what you are experiencing (and you aren't alone) is a good reason to ALWAYS check to see if a muzzle loader is loaded by running the rod down the bore. The stuck object may very well be the reason it was on the rack and it doesn't speak well for the person who took the rifle in to re-sell. I hope they check their cartridge rifles out t see if they are loaded or have clear bores 'cause it sounds like they really dropped the ball on the Trade Rifle.

    Don't get discouraged - you'll get it out and it should be fixable but you might have to get some "smith" help to do it the right way.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob208 View Post
    I have shot many a stuck balls and ramrods out. but now with the advent of certain inlines that use smokeless I have become very leery of doing it with a gun that I don't know how it is loaded.
    This! Do not try to shoot it out without knowing what powder is in there! Even a small amount of smokeless can blow up the barrel. You pulled it part way so it should come out easy with Co2 or compressed air. Second pin your RR tips. I like to epoxy and pin mine.
    Aim small, miss small!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I asked my mentor about this years ago and he said to buy one of the CO2 chargers to blow the stuck ball out. So far I have had to use it several times during matches when I forgot to put powder in before the ball. He said that dribble some powder in the powder barrel and then into the barrel and then use the nipple/cap to blow it out. If you checked the location of the ball, seems like you did and it was bottomed out then there should not be any powder inside. Since you pulled it part way, I agree with reseating the ball before proceeding. You can strap the rifle down and use a string to pull the trigger in case you are leery of a big bang.

    I would suggest buying a very well made cleaning rod with a very solid attached end, never use the wooden one.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Load your grease gun with chrisco. Eased to clean out than axel grease.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I would try compressed air first. Make sure it is pointed in a safe direction, something to catch the end of your ram rod so you won't loose it. The CO2 cylinders have more pressure( 750 psi). I have shot many a dry ball out with a little powder but in this case you don't know whats in there. Some breach plugs are in very tight and without the proper wrench it could mess things up. Using a grease gun works but oh what a mess.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master


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    Then there is the issue of using compressed air in a possibley loaded barrel, at about a compression ratio of 16 to one B/P can fire. Use CO2 or grease. A good grease gun will pump oil less mess
    Don't buy nuthing you can't take home

    Joel 3:10

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT Farmer View Post
    Then there is the issue of using compressed air in a possibley loaded barrel, at about a compression ratio of 16 to one B/P can fire. Use CO2 or grease. A good grease gun will pump oil less mess
    If this were true then CO2 would be more likely to set it off, Black powder creates it's own OX. A little water or oil will stop it from igniting.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    CO 2 cools as it is injected, condenses moisture. You can feel the barrel cool. Air heats as pressure raises hence how a deisel motor works.
    Don't buy nuthing you can't take home

    Joel 3:10

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    THANKS to all that replied.

    I have at least a half dozen grease guns. Looked around could not find a grease fitting to screw into the nipple hole. Thought about robbing one off of my Kubota backhoe but knowing my luck, I would screw up something else.

    Tried banging the barrel straight down on a block of wood. The ball is still in the same place as measured by inserting what is left of the ram rod.

    I have no access to a CO2 thingamajig to blow it out.

    Thought about putting a few grains of FFFg, ramming it all back down, and blasting a cap to see what happens, but got scared.

    NO powder came out of the flash hole after nipple was removed...........but could it be a solid-type powder in there or powder that has hardened?

    Bottom line: Since things like this bug me, I will tackle it some day. For now, I am hanging the Lyman .50 on the cabin wall next to my T/C Hawkin .45 Flintlock.

    Y'all take care, Bo in western NC

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    The CO2 shooters are available at bicycle shops as riders use them many times instead of a hand pump. I would suggest pulling the nipple and then use a piece of stiff wire to push into the opening as far as possible. You can hear the end of the wire scratching if there is no powder. If that sounds about right then reseat the ball as far back as possible. Then do the trickle in powder idea as much as possible and then put the nipple back in. Before you fire it off, get a face shield, heavy coat, heavy gloves and fire it off. If you are in the country, tie the rifle to a level fence pole with several wraps of rope and then fire it off.

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    Good stuff, oldracer. Question: How would I adapt the CO2 bike tire inflater to the nipple on this rifle?

    I will probably end up trying your 2nd suggestion. Around 1967, I ended up with a Japanese (WWII) rifle of unknown caliber. I loaded it with a 6.5 Jap shell, put the butt against a huge oak tree, and pulled the trigger with a string from about 50 feet away. This might be how I end up discharging the Lyman rifle.

    THANKS and have a great weekend. Bo, from the land of Moonshine and Rattlesnakes Aplenty

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    My CO2 shooter came with several size adapters. The one for the European valve stems should fit tightly and if not then make an adapter with 1/4-28 threads to fit it all together. Let us know how it turns out.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check