Had to make a middle of the night bathroom run and couldn't get back to sleep. This seemed like the best place to visit.Originally Posted by OS OK
Don't ask for pictures. You really don't want to see me in my bathrobe.
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Had to make a middle of the night bathroom run and couldn't get back to sleep. This seemed like the best place to visit.
Don't ask for pictures. You really don't want to see me in my bathrobe.
Thank you boys for straightening me out. Yes, I'm lost totally lost because I followed what has been handed down for decades for those of us that don't own a chronograph. Please do forgive me for me for my stupidity. I'll run right out and purchase a $1000.00 chronograph so I can see the speed that will tell my roughly what the primer does that is unless you happen to own a Glock and then all bets are off. Also please do forgive me for owning a Glock or for that matter posting this thread.
Where is your purple font?
1. Chronographs don't cost $1000. (dare I say manifest ignorance ?)
2. Reading primers and tea leaves have the same credibility.
3. Nothing unique about a Glock. Too hot a load is ----- (drum roll) too hot a load.
I have the facts backed up by real experts in Handloader. You have old wives' tales. Thasss all folks !
Son, I realize cheap chronographs don't cost $1K but then again I buy decent equipment.
Reading primers has always been a source of useful information but maybe not for your age group.
The know it all's here on the forum have explained the Glock's ability to deform a primer please go back and re-read some posts.
Handloader LOL I'll believe Elmer Keith any day as opposed to some geek with little or no experience claiming to be an expert.
Nothing unique about a Glock.....well son the same loads I ran thru a Glock showed no primer problems/ or what us old people would call excessive pressure when run thru another 40 cal of another brand. It doesn't hurt to be cautious.
Lastly, experience and common sense dictate that one move forwared cautiously. Being old and believing in the "Old wives tales " has so far kept me from blowing my darned head off. So, I would rather be wrong and be cautious than be a fool.
It doesn't work
Looks like we got ourselves a 'New Fish' here boys...Eldon, take a bow!
Your gonna be mighty entertaining to follow around the forum.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
Purple is for them limp wristed SanFransciscanites over on the coast...
Real Men do it in pink! Goes well with that old salty and wrinkled up and 'tanned like a hide' skin.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
I don't feel the need to max out my hand loads but I have shot some that were "a little warm" yet by some miracle I was able to figure this out without a chronograph. Had something to do with increased muzzle blast, more recoil, couple of split cases, kinda flat primers, stuff like that. None of these indications taken separately meant much of anything (the brass had been loaded quite a few times) but all of them together were enough to make me back off a little and double-check a few things. I got all the horsepower I needed without blowing up any guns.
If I owned a chronograph I'd STILL pay attention to the sound and feel of each new load and inspect my brass, watch for sticky extraction/heavy bolt lift, etc. That neat little gadget can tell you a lot but it can't warn you about excess headspace or an oversized firing pin hole, oily chamber… All of these will cause "pressure signs" in a perfectly safe load.
Start with good data, pay attention for anything unusual.
I'm not knocking the 'graph, just saying you can get by without it for most purposes.
Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.
The stuff you are talking about is valid and comes with years of experience. The main reason I usually recommend a chronograph is a lot of people are trying to get absolute max velocity out of their loads.
There are a lot of things that go into reaching a max load for a particular handgun, many of which you mentioned. I started out reloading a long time ago when I couldn't afford a chronograph and could barely afford to reload. I learned many of the same tricks and experiences you did.
I feel that even a cheap chronograph makes a good reference tool for working up a load, even if you have no desire to max out the cartridge. That is why I recommend them. They are more affordable now than ever as long as you aren't looking at the absolute top tier chronograph.
The value of a chronograph is that the gun firing the cartridge discussed here is an autoloader and has a functional range......too slow and it won't autoload. Too fast, above the standard speed, and guppy belly brass often starts showing up, usually before the primer gives definitive signs of stress that only show up when things get way too far out of hand.
The idea is to know well before you get to levels that cause problems, not to recognize them belatedly when you're already there.
Start low. Check for positive functioning and verify velocity is no more than the standard range expected. Don't exceed recommended maximums. Quite frankly it's best to stay away from maximums and duplicate standard to even substandard speeds as long as they function the pistol positively.
An example of recent use is my 40 Shield, which is a bit snappy with 165 to 180 grain factory loads. I wanted positive function with less velocity for my extended practice sessions so trotted out the chronograph and learned I could easily trim 100 fps plus off what the factory loads give using my handloads with 175 grain bullets and still cycle the gun reliably. I suppose you could do the same thing without having the chrono just seeing if the gun cycled using a reduced charge, but a benchmark was set that is now targeted when a new powder is tried, so there is less guesswork.
To re familiarize and get up to serious business, at least part of the practice sessions use factory duplication ammo which is where the chrono comes in handy again because I want to know I am duplicating standard velocity rather than guess. The full standard velocity stuff emphasizes a firm grip to reduce the vertical stringing I get if I go too loose in my hold. Brain fade is the enemy of shooting small snappy autoloaders accurately. It ain't a bullseye 22 gun.
Last edited by 35remington; 09-26-2017 at 11:18 PM.
the flat earth society has members all over the globe!
I have been schooled in the differences in pressure signs between normal semi-automatics and Glocks now. I don't need a chronograph to tell me how to load I simply won't use a Glock as a reference for my pressure tests. You guys that want to believe everything some young un-experienced editor writes in a worthless rag can go ahead and do so at your own risk. The depth of the firing pins marking on the primer varies with make and model and varies with each gun or can.
Don't care to have a chronograph because I have a number of OLD loading manuals which will keep me going until I can no longer walk and or shoot. I don't need a chronograph to tell me longer barrels= more velocity either.
I also don't need a chronograph to tell me if a load is too light to have my semi-automatic function correctly ejecting or loading a round. Simple common sense will tell you hey it didn't eject the round ...I need to increase the load or it didn't load the round I need to increase the load. I just don't need some of this new fangled technology when common sense can serve me well. I don't need to be tied down to a phone either. Some cannot function without their phone at their side. Heck I have seen guns and a cell phone on a bench at the gun range.
6bg your original question in this thread was perfectly ligit and a GOOD question...Not sure how this all became a "measuring contest" for others but I appreciate your asking straight forward questions concerning reloading safety...Keep it up..We will all learn along the way. I learned about the square Glock firing pin hole from this post too!
Last edited by Preacher Jim; 09-27-2017 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Obsene ter
Chronographs are cheap fingers are not. Go buy a chronograph. Not sure where he was writing about this but Larry Gibson posted some information recently about this subject. Specifically he was writing about what little value flat primers and bulges etc.... had in his experience with pressure testing.
If you want a chronograph you can buy a chronograph. If you NEED one, by all means go get it. One of these days I will but right now it isn't something I have to have.
I test for accuracy and function and I'm aware that calculated velocities are not the same as actual but until my circumstances change I'll get along.
Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.
This is the ticket...at the end of the day all you have is a bunch of empty cases. They have the primer signs but other signs may be present too. Could be some have smoke on the outside of the cases or split necks, lotz of sign there all the way through to case head separation.
All the signs were indications of pressure, or...the lack of pressure. Some sign may only indicate that your brass needs annealing and has gotten work hardened...etc.
The thing about sign is that you need to let it tell you the story and you need to try to interpret what it's saying...it ain't as simple as you might think because some sign is telling you that your platform needs looking after and there's nothing it's saying about your load other than the load is within parameters...
Sign, sound, recoil, proper action in a semi auto, Pb deposits in the barrel, spray coming out of a revolver...on and on and as you grow older you become even more aware of the signs...they ain't just old wives tales or something some old fart made up in his OCD head...it's sort of a 'Non Professional Country Boy Forensics' that a brass stuffer develops. It might not pass with the academic boys in their white coats but everyone ends up with the same conclusions at the end of the day.
I posted an article some time ago that one of the academics wrote about empirical evidence...I find it interesting, it's about a rifle cartridge and what is going on from ignition to exit of the barrel...you might enjoy the empirical evidence there...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-of-Propulsion
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
The point I was trying to make was that if velocity is within the range expected for the loading or below per established loading data given any reasonably standard barrel length, you can discount primer appearance as being the only relevant factor to be judged as there is additional information that helps to resolve the question. Simple, no?
If additional info (velocity) helps to clarify the safety of the load (and it certainly does help greatly) then it cannot be dismissed as needless information. Differences in barrel length can also be allowed for. If your short barrel gun is outrunning the longer barrel used to develop the load data it is prudent to figure you may be somewhere other than desirable in terms of your loading.
I doubt anyone intends to use blackpowder in their Glocks. If they did, velocities and pressures would be lower than standard velocities due to the small volume of autoloader cases developed and intended for smokeless powder. I have tried it in the 45 ACP just for laughs.
Last edited by 35remington; 09-27-2017 at 09:38 AM.
You know, something interesting I've noticed with a new Chronograph recently purchased...it figures the Average velocity, ES extreme spread, SD standard deviation and it list the velocities by shot shot string number and shot number. Seems like a lot of numbers flying around but when you put them on paper they start to tell a story too...I think.?. I just started this and time will tell.
As stated earlier, I like to shoot for group size and velocity all in the same whack, also just started running 10 rounds in a test string instead of 5 to get a broader sampling.
When I plotted the Avg. velocity, ES and SD on paper in graph form and comparred that to the actual target group size, I found that the lowest ES & SD has shown up along with the tightest groups. And so far they haven't shown up with the highest velocity..."with pistols''. Rifles and barrel harmonics are a different game all together.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
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