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Thread: legal fear of people

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    legal fear of people

    I have noticed that its quite normal for gun smiths to be willing to do strange things to guns for customers and have no issue doing so.

    Turning .357 magnum revolvers into 44 specials was a big one to do for years, until smith started making the new 5 shot 44 magnums.

    Custom chambering has always been considered normal, for most things. want a 7.62x25 revolver? that's done easily.

    The treat for me has always been when I wanted to do a project and had the cash, but not the ability to find someone willing to do some easy work on a gun.

    Long ago I thought I wanted a colt dragoon redone into a cartridge critter using 44 special or 44 colt with heeled 45 caliber bullets. best I could get was a gunsmith wanting almost 1,000 to convert a 6 shot dragoon into a 5 shot 44 special.

    Tried to look into a peace maker in 44 long colt to use with heeled bullets. well taking a SAA revolver in 45 colt, and taking a 44 special cylinder and simply straight boring the chambers was to much, didn't have saami drawing for the idjit to use that matched what I wanted to do. seems SAAMI only shows the modern .429 version...

    making a .357 into a 38 smith and Wesson was just as bad. apparently due to the 38 sw having a larger bullet diameter, and the fact that the larger bullet diameter has no issue on the .38 special/357 barrel or frame...... it wasn't doable for some reason unless I was willing to buy a base revolver from that dealer.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Converting a percussion pistol to a cartridge is a NO NO for a gunsmith unless he has a manufactures license. Basically that is producing a fire arm. You can convert one your self for your own use, no problem. I was doing the 44s to 44 Colt because that ammo was thought to be no longer available but the ATF told me in a polite way to stop.
    John Taylor, Taylor Machine, gunsmith

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    im always seeing how a percussion gun got sent off to a gunsmith and came back with a sleeved barrel, new cylinder and shield cut for cartridges.

    ubut can you explain why an idjit couldn't be willing to make sure an after market cylinder in 44 special, couldn't be timed to work in a saa in 45 colt and simply straight chamber it?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    One of the problems with going to a 45 Colt on a cap and ball is the rim diameter of the cartridge. There were some cylinders with the bore at a slight angle so the rims would fit and others went with a five shot cylinder. Same would be true going to a 38-40 or 44-40 most likely. I made my 58 Remy in 44 for the 44 special. The Kirst converters work fine but from what the ATF told me , I can not do the loading gate frame cut for a customer. Now someone doing their own frame cut is like building an 80% firearm.
    John Taylor, Taylor Machine, gunsmith

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    kirst skays if you send them your gun, and enough cash they'll send the gun back to you fully assembled, cleaned, and machined for a loading gate setup.
    It merely has to go through a regular FFL transfer process as it becomes a conventional center fire revolver.

    However several gun smiths have told me, and I believe kirst, is that if a regular citizen buys a colt open top revolver, gets a conversion cylinder with loading gate, and converts the gun himself, that he or she merely has to remove the conversion cylinder and loading gate ring, put the factory percussion cylinder in, and it becomes a regular percussion gun again they can UPS to anyone who can legally receive one in the mail from Cabelas.com.

    That's the funny part a lot of the folks I talked to years ago had a hard time understanding what I wanted to do.

    If I coldnt get the 44 special in a dragoon, not one gunsmith could understand that a 45 long colt chambered SAA if given a 44 special cylinder straight bored, ie the 44 special chamber extended out past the end of the cylinder removing the chamber throats, was an original factory offering from colt.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    I have a uberti 1858 with the Kirst converter and the frame is modded for the loading gate. Bought is like it was, as a cap and ball, through a dealer.
    You can buy the conversion cylinder and a c&p pistol without a BG check. put them together and you need a b&g?
    Guess I'm confused?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    It comes down to who modifies the frame for the loading gate. When the frame is changed to take a cartridge cylinder then it is being made into a firearm. Anyone manufacturing a firearm for sale needs a manufacturing license. A private party can manufacture a firearm for personal use but can not sell it.
    John Taylor, Taylor Machine, gunsmith

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    according to Michigan state police remove the conversion cylinder and loading gate ring and its bp again

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I get what you are trying to do. Bore out a .44 Sp. cylinder so the throats are at .45 cal groove diameter +.001 or .002, and you can shoot .44 Colt (original, with heeled boolits) out of a .45 SAA. That would work. Converting a .44 cal C&B to shoot .44 Colt was something that was available when the conversions started to gain popularity. I remember seeing advertisements for cylinders chambering .44 Colt original or a .44 Colt "modern" with a .429" inside lubed boolit which required that a .429" groove diameter barrel be installed. I don't know if they are still available. What JT says about the legalities are the real deal, though. You can do it no problem, but having someone do it means they have a lot of hoops to jump through.

    I've had "that conversation" with an alleged gunsmith or two in the past, where the fellow couldn't imagine the obvious. I wanted a Blackhawk barrel set back to cut a new (minimum) forcing cone to replace the "hog wallow" that was on it. Impossible!! he sez. How so, sez I? There's no way to know whether the sights would wind up on top again, he sez. . . He'd been in business for several years, but seemed to have no idea how to figure how far to cut the shoulder back to get three rotations of the barrel thread and make it work. I quietly went elsewhere.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    But is it too much to ask for competence in a gunsmith?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Well, there doesn't seem to be any legal requirements before hanging a sign and claiming to be one. Like the guy with the Apex House Painting sign on his truck, last week he might have been the president of Apex Lawn Care. I think it's a Let The Buyer Beware situation. I hope you're successful finding one who knows what he's doing and wants to tackle the job.
    Last edited by yeahbub; 10-06-2017 at 01:33 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


    Walter Laich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    It comes down to who modifies the frame for the loading gate. When the frame is changed to take a cartridge cylinder then it is being made into a firearm. Anyone manufacturing a firearm for sale needs a manufacturing license. A private party can manufacture a firearm for personal use but can not sell it.
    It's OK for personal use just don't sell it
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check