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Thread: .25 Auto Long rifle Wildcat.

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Single Shot Jimmy,
    Sounds like a Good experiment.
    My guess is that a case diameter of about .286" would work, which is about my current third Stage of Swaging down 5.7x28mm Cases.
    Please Keep us all informed of your Progress.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  2. #22
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    Thanks To "Jbelk", I now have a sampling of additional Propellants to try out in my "Wildcats"; he sold me a box of partial one pound cans of IMR products to Try out.
    Now to do "QuickLOAD" calculations with the product samples to see what starting loads might be.
    A weekend of computer "play" appears to be in my future.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  3. #23
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    The Following data is THEORETICAL, CALCULATED, and UNTESTED and is NOT a list of Recommended Loads!
    These Are for discussion Purposes only!

    Comment 25 ALR (6.35x24.4mmSR Ruger Revolver)
    Cartridge / Caliber .25 ALR (6.35x24.4mmSR Ruger;
    Bullet .251, 63, .257 Hunters Supply Lead FP sized .251".
    Maximum Average Pressure, allowed 25000 psi. 1724 bar (Piezo) with flatbase
    Groove Caliber 0.251 in. ~6.38 mm;
    Bullet Weight 63.0 gr. 4.08 gm;
    Case Capacity, overflow 10.5 gr. H2O 0.682 cm³;
    Bullet Length 0.538 in. 13.67 mm;
    Case Length 0.960 in. 24.38 mm;
    Bullet Seating Depth 0.218 in. 5.53 mm;
    Cartridge O.A. Length 1.280 in. 32.51 mm;
    Barrel/Tube Length 12.0 in. 304.8 mm
    Shot Start / Init Pressure 2176 psi. 150.03 bar;
    Estimated Cross Section Area of Bore 0.04874 in.² 0.3144 cm²;
    Propellant type Alliant 2400

    Diff.; Charge Weight; Muzzle Vel.; Muzzle Energy; Max. Pressure; Muzzle Pressure; Prop.Burnt; B_Time; L.R./Filling.
    %; Grams; Grains; m/s; fps; Joule; ft.lbs; bar; psi; bar; psi; %; ms; %.
    -20.0 0.32 4.9 394 1293 317 234 996 14440 147 2129 68.6 1.186 73
    -18.0 0.33 5.1 404 1325 333 245 1053 15279 153 2212 69.8 1.158 74
    -16.0 0.34 5.2 413 1356 349 257 1114 16153 158 2296 71.0 1.130 76
    -14.0 0.34 5.3 423 1388 365 270 1177 17066 164 2380 72.2 1.103 78
    -12.0 0.35 5.4 433 1420 382 282 1242 18019 170 2465 73.4 1.077 80
    -10.0 0.36 5.6 443 1452 400 295 1312 19025 176 2549 74.6 1.052 82
    -8.0 0.37 5.7 452 1484 418 308 1385 20085 182 2633 75.7 1.027 83
    -6.0 0.38 5.8 462 1516 436 321 1462 21203 187 2717 76.8 1.003 85
    -4.0 0.38 5.9 472 1548 454 335 1543 22381 193 2801 77.9 0.981 87
    -2.0 0.39 6.0 482 1580 474 349 1629 23623 199 2884 79.0 0.957 89
    Nominal 0.40 6.2 491 1612 493 364 1719 24932 205 2967 80.1 0.933 91
    +2.0 0.41 6.3 501 1645 513 378 1814 26312 210 3049 81.1 0.911 93
    +4.0 0.42 6.4 511 1677 533 393 1915 27768 216 3130 82.1 0.889 94
    +6.0 0.42 6.5 521 1709 554 409 2020 29303 221 3211 83.1 0.868 96
    +8.0 0.43 6.7 531 1742 575 424 2132 30922 227 3290 84.1 0.848 98
    +10.0 0.44 6.8 541 1774 597 440 2250 32632 232 3369 85.0 0.828 100

    Same parameters and Table layout but for Bullseye Propellant:

    -20.0 0.15 2.4 387 1268 305 225 1142 16564 107 1546 100.0 1.149 50
    -18.0 0.16 2.5 393 1290 315 233 1194 17318 109 1575 100.0 1.127 52
    -16.0 0.16 2.5 399 1310 326 240 1247 18091 111 1605 100.0 1.107 53
    -14.0 0.17 2.6 406 1331 336 248 1302 18884 113 1634 100.0 1.088 54
    -12.0 0.17 2.6 412 1351 346 255 1358 19697 115 1663 100.0 1.069 55
    -10.0 0.17 2.7 418 1371 356 263 1415 20529 117 1692 100.0 1.051 57
    -8.0 0.18 2.8 424 1390 367 270 1474 21381 119 1722 100.0 1.033 58
    -6.0 0.18 2.8 430 1410 377 278 1534 22254 121 1751 100.0 1.017 59
    -4.0 0.19 2.9 435 1429 387 286 1596 23147 123 1780 100.0 1.000 60
    -2.0 0.19 2.9 441 1448 397 293 1659 24061 125 1809 100.0 0.983 62
    Nominal 0.19 3.0 447 1466 408 301 1723 24995 127 1838 100.0 0.967 63
    +2.0 0.20 3.0 452 1484 418 308 1789 25951 129 1867 100.0 0.951 64
    +4.0 0.20 3.1 458 1503 428 316 1857 26928 131 1896 100.0 0.936 65
    +6.0 0.21 3.2 463 1520 438 323 1925 27927 133 1925 100.0 0.922 67
    +8.0 0.21 3.2 469 1538 449 331 1996 28947 135 1953 100.0 0.908 68
    +10.0 0.21 3.3 474 1556 459 339 2068 29990 137 1982 100.0 0.894 69

    Comments?

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-03-2018 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Added semicolons to table collumn header and units lists

  4. #24
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    My order From Matt's Bullets for 65 Grain .25 Bullets and 90 grain Heeled .32 Bullets seem to be cast and he is running them through the Lube process for me.

    I ordered an 'on sale' NOE 260-63 bullet mold with 2 GC and 2 PB cavities.

    Now hoping NOE can work programming magic to stretch the Group buy RD TC255-50-RF machining program to also cut a RD TC255-65-RF for me.

    I uploaded a Copy of the RD TC255-65-RF drawing to the NOE group buy Forum as a post to the existing 50 Grain pill group buy thread.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  5. #25
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    My Shipment from Matt's Bullets Arrived today, Saturday.
    I have not opened the Box yet.
    Spent the day Driving with a Good Friend from Sun Valley To Inyokern Airport and back with things from his Bunker for use in his Special Effects Business. ~266 mile round trip and got 16mpg in my Dakota Quad Cab SLT 4x4 on the trip.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  6. #26
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    Are you going to need the 67 grain reversible bullets or should I melt them down?
    AKA hans.pcguy

  7. #27
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    Traffer,
    YES, I DO Need the 67 Grain WC/HP Reversible Bullets!
    I am Waiting for Some More .612" long .25ACP Cases to be able to load and test Them in "Factory New Unfired Cases" so as to Get comparable Data to other Tests I, and my Friend here, have Run.

    Resized once fired .25ACP cases Are NOT Identical to the Never fired Factory Cases by Definition and Measurements. There are differences in the 'Work Hardening' of the Case material from the firing and then Resizing. There is the Difference between Factory New Diameter (at .278") and Resized Once Fired (at .276") that changes the powder chamber volume toward Greater MAP from The Factory New unfired case.
    In cases of larger dimensions, such differences are reduced to a smaller relative percentage and usually could be ignored. However; when I am looking at a powder chamber volume that is reduced by a appreciable percentage that no longer may be ignored.

    Calculated (via QuickLOAD) charge of Bullseye Propellant of 1.05 grains yields a MAP of 24,580psi and 104.2 percent Fill (a compressed charge). Changing that charge by + and - 2 Percent yields for -2% a Fill of 102% and MAP 23483psi and for the +2% yields Fill of 106% and MAP of 25719psi. QuickLOAD also Calculates the Range for Propellant Burn rate Variation allowed by Specifications: For the 1.05 grains +Ba yields 28449psi Pmax MAP and -Ba yields 20903psi Pmax MAP.

    As you can see small changes have an Big Effect on results. I am trying to Minimize the changes to get more meaningful test data.

    And reliably dispensing this small charge weight is frustrating enough as I have a Balance Beam type scale that is only marked for 0.1 Grain changes so I need to Interpolate to get The 1.05 Grain Charge; carefully trickling one Granule of propellant at a time as i near the desired Weight. it sometimes takes me three 'dump and reweigh' tries to get one exact desired charge.

    At least Being Retired has a few benefits, one of them being a flexible time schedule.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 11-08-2017 at 03:18 AM.

  8. #28
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    My plan is to open the Box from Matt's Bullets Wednesday.
    This is a 1000 piece order of Lyman #257420 65 Grain Nominal bullets and 1000 piece order of Accurate Mold #311090A 90 grain nominal Heeled Bullets.
    The Heeled ones were ordered Lubed and will have a film of Lube covering The Heel and filling The lube groove in the heel. I have found the 'film' scrapes off as the bullet is seated in my .32 Colt sized cases. I then Crimp them using a Collet Crimp die I bought from Old West Moulds.

    My plan is to use the '257420' bullets, sized to .251", in loading some .25ALR Cartridges with a test load sequence for Bullseye and BE-86 Propellants.
    As these are Resized .276" diameter Cases swaged down from 5.7x28mm (.312" diameter) brass and then trimmed to .960" length, they are my current "Factory New Case Reference" for this, 25ALR, Cartridge.
    As I have not received the .25ALR Cylindrical chamber Finish reamer yet, I will probably fire these out of my existing .250ALRM tapered chamber 8-shot cylinder so may have Different results from when I have the New Cylinder Made with the New Reamer.

    This last week the Whether here has been Cold and damp in the mornings, which discourages Loading on my back Patio, which is my Loading Shop Space. I am hooping for a Calm, warmer, and dryer afternoon Wednesday to get some test loads made.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  9. #29
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    The Lyman 257420 Nominal 65 grain mold seems to drop Bullets that, after lubing, weigh 73 to 74 grains. This is Greater than Lyman Advertises for this mold.

    These are about 150% of the Nominal 50 grain .25ACP bullet; so will need to calculate a test load sequence for this weight and length bullet.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  10. #30
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    500 of the Matt's Bullets 257420 Cast and Lubed bullets are now sized to .251" diameter ready for loading.

    Received My JGS Precision .25ALR Finish reamer and Saturday turned it and a 8-shot replacement Cylinder (.22 MAG) in to my Gunsmith to be opened to .251" through and chambers reamed to fit the .25ALR Cartridge.

    There is also a JGS Precision .25ACP Finish Chamber reamer and another 8-shot cylinder waiting for his 'ministrations'.

    These are intended to fit my Custom Ruger Single Eight barreled in .25ACP size.

    Also, on Saturday I told him to go ahead with the Conversion of my Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R Mag to take custom modified Stainless Steel Cylinders for .32 Colt "family" of Cartridges. This means setting the barrel back so the forcing cone will fit he Modified Ruger .22 Mag 6-shot Cylinders I am having reamed for the .32 Colt Cartridges. He will also rework the original .32 H&R cylinder to fit after Setting the Barrel back.

    I got two Evenings of Work Tending Generators (two 500 amp rated Tow Plants) in support of the Sony Studios Christmas Holiday Employee Party, the First Days of work this year.
    My Christmas will be Better for the work, and the take home paycheck.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  11. #31
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    I just placed An order for some PPU empty .25ACP Brass from "Graf & Sons" so now begins the wait for delivery. At $4.95 per 50 case bag, they are quite reasonable at this time, about 1/3 the cost of the Jagemann 100 piece bag from Midway.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 01-18-2018 at 03:17 PM.

  12. #32
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    The Graf & Sons order of PPU .25ACP empty Brass arrived; after measuring one Bag of 50 cases I am saddened to find they are about .274" diameter and running between .617" and .620" in case length.
    The Previous PPU, and G.F.I., empty cases I had purchased about two years ago were .278" diameter and .612" case length as received.
    The "Ammoguide Interactive" (A.I.) .25ACP case drawing is included below (A.I #112):

    Note That Cartridge Max length is .910".

    The A.I. case drawing for the .22WRF (A.I. #752) is included below:

    Note that the cartridge max length is 1.170".

    The A.I. case drawing for the .25ALR (A.I. #1011) is included below:

    Note that the cartridge max length is listed as 1.400".

    Comments:
    The .25ALR rim would need to be turned down to .302" Diameter to function through the same actions as .25ACP.
    The .25ALR would need to be loaded to 1.170" to function through .22WRF actions.
    The .22WRF Actions would need to pass at least the .25ACP diameter Rims. (My 1890 .22WRF action DOES handle .25ACP rims through the Magazine.)
    The .22WRF actions would need to be converted to Center Fire to function with either .25ACP or .25ALR cartridges.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 03-10-2018 at 12:52 PM.

  13. #33
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    February 25th Sunday and it has been Cool/Cold and Windy here for a Couple of weeks so no work in my Patio Tent work room.

    My Gunsmith told me mid month that the might get some of my cylinders Reamed Adn chambered to return to in Very Late February or Early March.

    I am Still Hoping for some Maximum Cartridge Dimensions .25ACP empty Cases. That is .278" diameter and .612"-.615" long.

    This "Winter" my finances have been "Squeezed" by Property Taxes and Utility Bills and Vehicle Registration fees (BOOO California!) and higher Fuel Costs due to increase in Gas Taxes. The "Trickle down" of increased costs of Food and other Needs is also giving me Financial Pains.

    One of the Camellia Bushes that my Mother planted decades ago died this winter, it was suffering from the 'Drought Restriction Watering Schedules' for the last couple of years and finally gave up. The last Year's Winds had stripped it of all leaves and no new growth appeared this year.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  14. #34
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    Yesterday i received An old "J.Stevens Arms Company" barrel marked '.25-Stevens' and is a Full length Tapered Octagon of 24 inch length with a Tenon to fit the 1915 model Stevens 'Favorite" receiver. The Octagon measures about .640" across flats at he Muzzle end and about .770" across flats at he Breech end.
    The Bore and Rifling look clean and free of Pits or 'shadow zones'. the Rifling appears to be narrow at the Bore diameter and wide at the Groove diameter. The Muzzle has a medium 45 degree champfer crown to the bore, several times the depth of the rifling.

    I hope it will slug good dimensions for Bore and Groove diameters.

    I have a 1915 Stevens action that I plan to use it with if all dimensions are good.
    Center Fire conversion Breech Block is planned for this Action and Barrel combination.

  15. #35
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    That will assemble into a very fine small game and woods-bumming rifle.
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Yesterday i received An old "J.Stevens Arms Company" barrel marked '.25-Stevens' and is a Full length Tapered Octagon of 24 inch length with a Tenon to fit the 1915 model Stevens 'Favorite" receiver. The Octagon measures about .640" across flats at he Muzzle end and about .770" across flats at he Breech end.
    The Bore and Rifling look clean and free of Pits or 'shadow zones'. the Rifling appears to be narrow at the Bore diameter and wide at the Groove diameter. The Muzzle has a medium 45 degree champfer crown to the bore, several times the depth of the rifling.

    I hope it will slug good dimensions for Bore and Groove diameters.

    I have a 1915 Stevens action that I plan to use it with if all dimensions are good.
    Center Fire conversion Breech Block is planned for this Action and Barrel combination.
    Great score. If you were to find any rimfire cases for the 25 Stevens, I would be happy to load them for you.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  17. #37
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    Traffer,
    I have most of a box of Remington "Kleenbore" Factory .25 Stevens Cartridges I bought at a Gun Show for $60.00 a few years Ago. I keep them for Exemplar use and don't fire them often at all. So far it is the only box of them I have seen in my local gun shows.
    Chev. William

  18. #38
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    I "trial fitted" the Octagon .25 Stevens "Favorite" barrel to my Stevens "Favorite Model 1915" Action without an extractor nor ejector installed and, after removing most of a 'raised Burr' on the take down screw seat in the barrel tenon, it went home in the action.
    I will Dress the remaining 'burr' down to flush with the tenon surface later.
    Sadly, some new CNC machined M1915 Favorite Breech blocks are shorter from Pivot pin to rear surface radius than both the current Breech block and the Receiver rear shoulders so I cannot get the Preferred fit (Breech Block hard against the receiver shoulders in Battery position) unless i rework the Breech block to add metal to the rear radius.

    Perhaps doable; as I know an Aerospace Welding shop nearby.
    If I limit the added metal to the area that would be against the shoulders when block is in battery position, it would be easier to dress it down to the desired final fit.
    The new Breech blocks are reportedly made from "Alloy 4140 cr Steel" so having the shop do the buildup with similar alloy would make the modified Breech block heat treatable to regain strength probably lost in the welding process.

    Re heat treating and tempering to Rc 40-42 would give a Strong but still tough Breech block (Rc 41 ~ 168ksi YS). the American Society for Metals data indicates a range of 163-179ksi YS at Rc40 to 176-185ksi YS at Rc42 and another source indicates a range of 166ksi YS at Rc40 to 178ksi YS at Rc42.

    It seems a procedure of Normalizing, then welding, machining, then hardening, followed by Tempering may give the desired strength to the finished Breech Blocks.

    Something to think about further.

    Perhaps a Rc hardness test first would be a good Idea also.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-03-2018 at 10:49 AM. Reason: revised punctuation for better reading.

  19. #39
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    I Looked at The Lothar Walther current website and they have changed the format from a 'table listing' to a 'photo listing' with each product in a separate photo.
    Not as easy to go through for what is available for a persons needs in my opinion.
    I called Lothar Walther in the USA this morning to check on what happened to the .25ACP/6.35 Browning barrel Blanks listings which I could not find on the new web format and was told they are still available at ~$214 Each for the 23+" Long by ~1+" Diameter Chrome-Moly alloy steel blanks.

    They are sending me a Link that should get me to the 'old format' website so I can see the table format again.

    Chev. William

  20. #40
    Chev, considering the favorite and its operations pressure, plus original design, is HT on the replacement block really necessary? It's already in a state if annealed that exeeds the 1010 or so original material which was only cased for wear resistance. Strength on CroMo is so high relative to operating stresses on your action the HT would be hugely overkill. Wear resistance, another story.

    The HAZ formed by the buildup welding will likely be much harder on surface than the base material and may not require any case to add significant wear resistance if finished well during fitment (no grinding, just cool file work)

    If mild worked before and you replace a part with 4100 series anything, it's already been overkilled pretty well for strength.
    Just a thought.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check