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Thread: .25 Auto Long rifle Wildcat.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    .25 Auto Long rifle Wildcat.

    This Wildcat is Made from 5.7x28mm Empty once fired Brass by Swaging it down in diameter to .276" Diameter then Trimming it to .960" case length.
    This ends up a 'Semi Rimmed' case as the Original rim is left as Was.
    I am using bullets of .250" to .252" diameter and Crimping them for Starting Resistance at propellant ignition.

    A good Bullet seems to be the Hornady #2510 (Jacketed Soft Flat Point 60 grain) sized to .250" diameter.
    I am also collaborating on development of a Swaged Lead 67 grain .250" diameter Wad-cutter/Hollow Point Reversible Lead bullet for use with .25ACP, this .25ALR, and other similar Caliber Wildcats.

    To date none have been Loaded And Fired yet due to my poor financial condition at the moment.
    However; i have loaded a few Dummy samples to try as Function Test Items.


    Left to Right: .25ACP @.905" OAL; .25ALR @1.293" OAL; .25 Magnum Auto. @.1.366" OAL; .25ALS @ 1.407" OAL. All With .250" sized Hornady #2510 60 grain Jacketed Soft Flat Point Bullet.
    Note: .25ACP Case Length = .612"; .25ALR Case Length = .960"; .25 Magnum Auto. Case Length = 1.055"; .25ALS Case Length = 1.125".

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 03-19-2018 at 03:00 PM. Reason: corrected typo.; was "5", is"3".

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    NOTED Also:
    The rim diameter and Extractor Clearance cut is slightly different/Larger than that of the .25ACP.
    .25ACP Extractor clearance cut Diameter is .252", Taper above it is 20 Degree one side. Rim diameter is .303"
    5.7x28mm Extractor clearance cut Diameter is .260", Taper above it is 25 Degrees one side. Rim Diameter is .307"

    It is possible to easily Reduce the rim diameter to that of the .25ACP by chucking a formed case in a Drill motor and applying a Mill file to the rim edge. the Extractor cut Diameter could be changed by use of a Lathe.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 09-24-2017 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Add subscription option. Add Rim dia. in Bold type face.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I'd sure like to see the reloading data for THAT ONE!

    Can any of those rounds be adapted to a blowback .22LR auto pistol or rifle?
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    This cartridge would make a great semi-auto rifle in a short range varmint gun.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    It would be sorta the antithesis of the .17 caliber rimfire cartridges, because it would launch a heavier, fatter projectile at more sedate velocities. If the 60gr. .251 projectile is optimized to open up at .25 ACP velocity, what effect might it have at half-again or twice that velocity?
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    I'd sure like to see the reloading data for THAT ONE!

    Can any of those rounds be adapted to a blowback .22LR auto pistol or rifle?
    Reloading data STARTING loads Are like the .25ACP in the reloading manuals. The Upper end of possibilities are still open to development, however; a 3.0 grain Charge of BE-86 behind a 63 grain Lead Bullet sized .251" has been repeatedly fired in Custom 10-5/8" barrel Custom Ruger Single Eight .25ACP Revolver. This indicates it is Possible to improve even the .25ACP cartridge for Special use.

    Re: Blowback action Conversion.
    In My OPINION it would be possible to adapt a .22 LR Semi Auto Pistol such as the Ruger Standard Auto (now in Mark IV versions) to fire the .25ACP with minor problems fabricating a Magazine to fit the action and conversion from RF to CF of the Bolt assembly.
    The Cartridge MAP are similar and the pistol would need tuning of the recoil spring to match the Cartridge.

    A semi-Auto Blowback Action Rifle would most likely be similar.

    A Pistol or Rifle originally designed to fire the .22WMR Cartridge would be convertible to the 1.055" Case, or Shorter Case lengths, with reasonable work involved.

    Lothar Walther Makes And Sells Both Cr-Mo Alloy Steel and Stainless Steel "Pistol Barrel Blanks" in .25 Auto/6,35 Browning bore/Groove dimensions with 1 in 9.8" Twist 6 land rifling and 23.8" blank length.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 09-25-2017 at 09:32 PM. Reason: corrected a typing error

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    The Stevens ".25 Stevens (Long) RF" cartridge in a roughly 22" single shot rifle and loaded to about 1100 fps with its 67 grain Lead bullet was, around 1890-1910 considered a GOOD "Pot Meat" and 200 yard OFF HAND Target Round. They did comment that, like many cartridges of the day, had a 'High curving Trajectory'.

    The .25ALS 1.125" case is the Same length as the .25 Stevens case.

    For Conversions,, i would say that Tube magazine rifles or carbines would make the Best project.

    I have parts "Putter Project" of a .25ACP conversion of a Winchester 1890 type 3 Pump action in work that will have a 20" barrel when finished.

    My barrel is a relined $20 Ebay "Bubba'd" one that started out as a .22 WRF Barrel cut down by the Previous owner. A TJ Liner with 1 in 14" RH twist was installed by John Taylor of Taylor Machining in Coos Bay, OR. I am waiting on a New Finish Reamer from JGS Precision to Chamber the Barrel.

    I have Set of Stock Pieces for it made from Curly Maple and finished Natural (Maple) Colors.

    Once it is Ready, I will have the metal parts refinished from their Gray Patina to Blued again.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-14-2017 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Re edited for better readability

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    It would be sorta the antithesis of the .17 caliber rimfire cartridges, because it would launch a heavier, fatter projectile at more sedate velocities. If the 60gr. .251 projectile is optimized to open up at .25 ACP velocity, what effect might it have at half-again or twice that velocity?
    Honestly, I have No Idea Yet.

    I believe The Hornady #2510 is designed originally for the ".25-20SS" but may Be incorrect in this belief.

    Where i live, The Various Levels of Government 'Frown Mightily' upon any hunting (even with air pistols or air rifles and 'BB' guns), and Varmint/Pest hunting in my Urban area Especially, so my Shooting is at Commercial Ranges a few miles from my home.
    60, 63 and 67 grain bullets do Punch Paper Very Well.
    All have RFN nose contours with a Goodly Meplat diameter, so should also work as game harvesting bullets.
    Even the "Lowly" .25ACP loaded with a 50 grain RFN "Ranch Dog" design Lead Bullet is reported to have dispatched Trapped Hogs at 21 feet with efficiency.

    Get Away from the Short, 3" or less, Barrels and performance improves greatly.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-14-2017 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I really like the idea of recreating the great old small game rounds in a much easier loading straight cased form.

    While I see that the 25ACP is, here, meant to remain the ersatz parent case; I must wonder aloud - Wouldn't going to .257" make bullets, barrels, and case forming all much easier?
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    "Oh Lordy" Just Look at ALL the "Quarter Bore" Cartridges already in existence with .257" or .258" Bullet Needs.

    Yes, I Chose to Travel "The Lesser Traveled Path" which Does make for more 'Work' making Cases and Bullets to fit, but I feel the Enjoyment is well Worth the effort in the End.

    A Lee Precision Carbide Ring .25ACP Sizing die, Opened to a custom Specified Diameter, is about $60 Each. I have amassed a set of Four Dies in diameters .300", .288", .284", and of course .276" which is the Stock Sizer diameter.
    These are my current Swaging Set for the .25 Series of 'Mildcats' from .25ACP @ .612" up through .250ALRx at about 1.380" so I get a Wide Range of use from them.

    I did also get a Custom Seating die made by Lee Precision for the Longer Cases so it is easier to seat bullets in Them consistently.

    I Also Crimp Separately from Seating as part of my loading general process. My Habit is to measure one charge at a time, charge The Case and immediately seat a bullet in it, then set it in a 'loading Block' to later crimp the bullets in a Batch.

    I avoid any 'Squib' or 'double charge' problems this way.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

    PS: Think of What A STRONG Action could do with a .25ALS using H-110 propellant behind a 120 grain Boat Tail bullet in a 26 inch Barreled Rifle. Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-14-2017 at 11:36 AM. Reason: add information

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    How about a pic of the parent case in the stages of forming? I am lost as to just what you did to arrive at this case/cartridge.
    USMC 6638

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landy88 View Post
    I really like the idea of recreating the great old small game rounds in a much easier loading straight cased form.
    [...]
    My thoughts exactly; recreates the nostalgia somewhat, but in a more modern format.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldblinddog View Post
    How about a pic of the parent case in the stages of forming? I am lost as to just what you did to arrive at this case/cartridge.
    Per your request:



    1. The leftmost Case is a "once fired" FNB 5.7x28mm in front of the Shell holder.
    2. Next is the case Expanded in neck/Shoulder with a .2500" diameter Drill Rod Home Made Expander Punch ( I now have a Lee Universal small case Expander lathe cut to .250"/.240" to use in my reloading Press).

    3. The next one is ready for its First Swage pass in front of the RCBS Small Primer Pocket Swage punch and the Stripper cup with a spacer Washer to support the Head and primer pocket in my swaging process.
    4.,5.,6. The remaining Three cases are in front of The Three Swaging/sizing dies used for my, then, three Stage swaging process. I now use Four Stages in the Swaging process.

    Starting Body diameter is about .312" for the 5.7x28mm Case. Ending Body diameter is .276" as that is The Stock Lee .25ACP Sizer Result.



    This is an Illustration of dummy Cartridges assembled with various Resized bullets with a constant seating depth. the Leftmost two Are the same bullet But seated with two Different seating stems.

    This displays the range of bullet designs and weights That COULD be used in a a RIFLE application. Also note the Cases are "6,35x32MMSR Stewart". They are About 1.230" case length as formed and otherwise Untrimmed.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-14-2017 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Reedited for readability

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks. That is more clear now.
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    De Oppresso Liber

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  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Diver View Post
    Tagged
    ???????????
    Chev. William

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    ???????????
    Chev. William
    he is tagging your thread so that he can follow the progress of this thread....in other words ....he finds this interesting enough to read all the responses but he can look for it faster because he has it "tagged".

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Ahha. Thank you for the explanation. I thought 'subscribing' was how it worked.
    Chev. William

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    This Cartridge now has a Published Listing on Ammoguide Interactive.

    .25 Auto Long Rifle

    Case Diagram

    Image

    .25 Auto Long Rifle at AmmoGuide.com
    SPECIFICATIONS
    Bullet Diameter: .251 in.
    Max Overall Length: 1.400 in.
    Max Avg Pressure: 40,000 psi
    Rifling Twist: 1-in-9.8 in.
    Case Capacity (est): 10.5 gr. water
    Primer Size: .175 in.

    NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
    Bullet Weight: 63 gr
    Muzzle Velocity: 1,220 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 208 ft-lbs

    "Easy Link" to this cartridge (copy and paste into emails, forums, etc.):
    .25 Auto Long Rifle - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=1011

    History/Description
    "The .25 Automatic Long Rifle is a semi-rimless "Mildcat" derived from swaged down and trimmed 5.7x28mm cases. The body diameter is reduced via a multiple-step swaging process to about .276" diameter all the way to the extractor clearance cut on the base. Trim length of the "Mildcat" is .960" which is similar to the .22 WRF case length.

    As the swaging process thickens the case walls and reduces the flash hole diameter, it has been drilled to .078" diameter and deburred for ease of decapping with a Lee Universal Decapping Die and punch. This cartridge uses small pistol, or small rifle primers. This is a "semi-rimless" design and head spaces on The Rim.

    It is intended to use bullets of .250" to .251" diameter similar to the .25ACP/.25 Auto/6,35 Browning cartridge and shares its bore and groove specifications. However, it has been developed in a custom-barreled and converted Ruger Single Eight with rifling twist rate of 1 turn in 9.8 inches.

    Bullet weights so far have been: Hornady #2510 60 grain jacketed soft flat point 60 grain sized to .250" diameter; Hunters Supply 63 grain RFN lead; a prototype swaged lead 67 grain square ended WC/HP Reversible design that is powder-coated and then final sized to .250" diameter; and of course, the standard .25 ACP 50 grain FMJ-RN of .251 diameter.

    Propellants used so far are Bullseye and BE-86.

    This "Mildcat" has been put together to increase the propellant capacity and choices for this caliber over the ones possible in the original John Browning cartridge design.

    NOTE: This Ruger Single Eight is custom-converted from rimfire to centerfire, has a 10-5/8" long barrel based upon a Lothar Walther Cr-Mo alloy steel pistol barrel blank of their .25 Auto/6,35 Browning catalog line and is using 8-shot replacement .22 WMR cylinders bored and chambered for .25 ACP and longer cartridges. As such it is STRONGER than the 'run of the market' semi-auto pistols normally sold for the .25 ACP cartridge.
    ----------
    (Thanks to William J. Stewart for submitting this cartridge.)"

    Best Regards,
    Chev. william
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-01-2017 at 02:12 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    I'm tempted to replicate what you have done here except in .258. Excellent work on the .250 version.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check