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Thread: .25 Auto Long rifle Wildcat.

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    Very good points.
    I was thinking of The Strength of the "ears" that contain the front pivot hole in the replacement BB.
    The BB measures about .545" wide with about a .250" center extractor cut, leaving about .145" wide ears with about a .150" margin around the .230" diameter pivot pin hole.
    i would not like the 'ears' to fail in Tension loading from firing my rifle. it would make for a Very Bad Day indeed!

    I do admit the 95ksi yield strength estimate is better than 1010 Steels; but thought ~160ksi yield would give a larger margin of safety.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  2. #42
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    Two of the new manufacture 4140 Alloy Steel Stevens 1915 "Favorite" Breech Blocks are at my gunsmith's to be converted Center Fire use.

    I also have handed my gunsmith my newest JGS Precision finish chamber reamer, the ".25 MACP WS #3" designed with a straight Cylinder Body of .2795" diameter.

    He already had several aftermarket 8-shot 1144 Alloy Steel Cylinders he is reaming out to take these JGS Finish chamber reamers for use in my Custom .25ACP Ruger Single Eight Revolver. it will now have straight walled chambered cylinders for .25ACP, .25ALR (of .960" nominal case length), and .25MACP (of 1.024" to 1.056" nominal case lengths) to be used later in the season.

    Chev. William

  3. #43
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    Experimenting more with Forming 'Dies' for my wildcats.
    I tried A .277" ID x.5000" OD x .500" Long Hardened (Rc61) Alloy Steel Drill Bushing in a re-purposed sizing die body "Wrong side to"; eg: with the "Exit" end toward the Mouth of the Die body. This puts the Relatively Square 'sharp' edged hole toward the entering case.

    I have had A 'Bother' with my case forming as the Carbide Ring sizing die has both a Radius a the Mouth and a tapered lead to the actual sizing zone; which leaves a tapered larger diameter section just forward of the Rim that I have to remove by turning.

    This experiment made a 'Formed', but unturned, ex-.22 Hornet case into a finished case without turning the Base. the case had a Fine, Thin, ring of Sheared off brass sitting in The Extractor Clearance cut just above the rim that I easily slid off over the case mouth by finger Pressure.

    Since this die body is a little too Loose to hold the bushing against Case extraction forces I will Need to rework it or machine a Die Blank with a tighter 'Hold' on the Bushing.

    Thinking about this, I believe the Best Option is to start with a New Blank die Body and machine it to fit The Bushing tighter.
    The old die body may still have enough "Meat" remaining to allow remachining to tightly fit a larger OD Bushing in the future.

  4. #44
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    The "repurposed" Die body upon checking had enough remaining length to allow machining the bushing socket deeper and reaming the new depth to .5000" diameter.
    It also allowed me to machine the Mouth with a 'lip' which I hammered over the freshly seated Bushing to lock it in the Body.
    At the same Time I drilled out the top to 15/32" for later Tapping to 1/2-20UNF Threads for a future Use.
    I had found another Body to "repurpose" so I drilled and reamed it to take a Bushing of 1-3/8" length and .250" ID for future use as a 'Seater' Die for my versions of a Wildcat called the ".22 Ladybug" made from Swaged down .25ACP cases, which i have a supply of with 'smaller than desired' diameters to work with. Its top was also Drilled out to 15/32" for future threading to 1/2-20UNF for adjustment parts.
    I will eventually make an adjustable top piece; with replaceable seating pins for different bullet contours.

    The revised .277" die works As Intended and I have now run 100 cases that were swaged down (but not turned) through it successfully, shearing the roughly .070" long 'oversized tapered' base length to ~.277" diameter.

    The proposed 'seating' Die easily accepts some .22CCM cases I have so it is apparently suitable for its intended use.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-26-2018 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Corrected Typing errors

  5. #45
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    Yesterday I had the use of my friends Special Effects Shop lathe to Tap the top of my 're-purposed' Dies to 1/2-20UNF Threads.
    I used A 'Taper end Tap' to begin the process and run the threads most of the way down to the depth of my drilling, then switched to a 'Plug end Tap' to take the Finished threads further, and finally a 'Bottoming end Tap' to get finished threads as far as possible in the stepped diameter bores.

    A third 're-purposed' die body, this one a Lee that I cracked their Carbide Ring insert in, was also machined to take a .2500" ID x 1/2" OD x 1/2" long Drill Bushing to make a .250 Diameter Swaging Die for my contemplated set of forming dies for the ".22 Ladybug" wildcat Cartridge.
    Now to Await more Die body blanks and the rest of the Drill bushings I need to make my forming set.
    Sometimes being on 'Social Security Retirement' is frustrating; but at 75 years old, jobs in The Movie Industry Are Scarce and Long term employment is nearly nonexistent.

    Chev. William

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Yesterday I had the use of my friends Special Effects Shop lathe to Tap the top of my 're-purposed' Dies to 1/2-20UNF Threads.
    I used A 'Taper end Tap' to begin the process and run the threads most of the way down to the depth of my drilling, then switched to a 'Plug end Tap' to take the Finished threads further, and finally a 'Bottoming end Tap' to get finished threads as far as possible in the stepped diameter bores.

    A third 're-purposed' die body, this one a Lee that I cracked their Carbide Ring insert in, was also machined to take a .2500" ID x 1/2" OD x 1/2" long Drill Bushing to make a .250 Diameter Swaging Die for my contemplated set of forming dies for the ".22 Ladybug" wildcat Cartridge.
    Now to Await more Die body blanks and the rest of the Drill bushings I need to make my forming set.
    Sometimes being on 'Social Security Retirement' is frustrating; but at 75 years old, jobs in The Movie Industry Are Scarce and Long term employment is nearly nonexistent.

    Chev. William
    With your knowledge and access to machinery, you would have no problem at all swaging your own bullets. The dies and tools are far easier to make than the case swaging dies you are involved in making. It is also fun and cheap to make your own custom bullets from swaging dies. (I am referring to lead bullets not jacketed)
    AKA hans.pcguy

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Hans,
    Yes, i currently have a Friend With a Shop.
    However, my past experiences with soldering Electronics, using a 'Tinning Pot' for pre-tinning the stripped ends heavy stranded Wires before soldering them in to assemblies, and the occasional burns received, make me reluctant to Start collecting the equipment to cast Lead presently.

    I am Adverse to Lead fume poisoning at my current age.
    I am financially Limited in my Discretion to buy new Major Equipment.

    Perhaps sometime yet I may get into Lead Melting and casting/swaging.
    chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-22-2018 at 12:05 AM.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    Little Progress so far this Month on my .25 Projects. I am stil Waiting on my gunsmith to ream and finish the chambers in 8-Shot cylinders for:
    Straight walled .25ACP.
    Straight walled .25ALR.
    Straight Walled .25MACP.
    Straight walled .25ALS.
    Slug and mark (with Bore and Groove/Land Diameters) a 1890 Winchester Octagon Barrel in .22WRF. This barrel appears to have Very Good condition Rifling and Shiny bore.

    I have continued to accumulate 1890 Winchester Bits and Pieces and am close to having enough to assemble a 'center fire' .22WRF conversion to use Swaged down .25ACP cases ,for a .22CF 'Long' cartridge, or possibly swaged down 5.7x28mm cases to make a .22CF of WRF size Cartridge.
    I will Need to obtain bullets for this project in the future (.224" or so diameter, depending upon what my barrel 'Slugs' as Diameters.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-27-2018 at 09:31 AM.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    I was informed Via Email by Mike Haas of "Ammoguide Interactive" that a Magazine has also published my "Ammoguide Interactive" write-up and case drawing of my .25 Automatic Long Rifle ]cartridge design.
    The Magazine is "Outdoorsman" May 2018 issue.

    This Memorial Holiday Weekend I am spending time at the Los Angeles Live Steamers Railroad Museum Annual Spring Meet to enjoy seeing many model Live Steam Locomotives running on Wood, COAL, Oil, Alcohol, and Propane Fuels in Scales from Less than 3/4" inch to the foot to over 2-1/2 inches to the foot. This brings back memories of Southern Pacific Railroad Steam Locomotives that pulled both Passenger and Freight trains through the San Fernando Valley on their way to and form Downtown Los Angeles, CA Yards And Terminals.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-27-2018 at 09:33 AM.

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy
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    Congrats, on the article. Yours is a fun, useful, and neglected area of wildcatting.

    Since you brought them up, when did steam rail engines go out of normal use?
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.

  11. #51
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    Steam Locomotives were In General Use in the USA through WW2 and, I believe, through the Korean Conflict with Diesel Electric Locomotives beginning the replacement around the start of WW2: but delayed by the War Efforts. Some experiments were run earlier with both Gas and Diesel motive power. Examples are the 'McKeen' Gasoline fueled Passenger Car (sample is in the Virginia and Truckee Railroad collection of the Nevada State Museum, near Carson City, NV) and the Diesel fueled 'Twentieth Century Limited that also had Polished Stainless Steel Bodies.
    In the Los Angeles Area, Steam Rail Motive power was removed from service about 1950-1955 if I remember correctly. mostly due to their Burning 'Bunker C' Heavy Fuel Oil.

    Steam Motive Power was generally labor intensive but a Steam Locomotive would last several decades in service before being beyond running Maintenance Economic limits. Diesels on the other hand seem to need total Ground Up rebuild about every 12 years of service.

    there is also a difference in Operating Load characteristics between the two types:
    A Diesel Electric Locomotive can Start a train load that it cannot pull continuously.
    A Steam Locomotive can pull continuously a train load it cannot start from zero speed.

    Example: SP Gs-4 'Daylight' 4-8-4 Locomotive was used to pull the American Freedom Train (~1974-1976) West of the Mississippi. i followed it from Bakersfield to Glendale California. a diesel electric Locomotive was coupled in behind the auxiliary tender at the Insistence of the railroad management who thought the 'old steam engine' would not be able to handle the load over the Grades between Bakersfield and Mojave.

    The Steam Locomotive Engineer Knew better and proceeded to demonstrate that fact in his Morning departure out of Bakersfield by accelerating the Train so quickly the Diesel Electric Locomotive was 'kicked off Line' from the Rapid speed increase and was not able to reset and come back "on line" until they reached Mojave.

    The Sight of that Steam locomotive working up the Grade from Bakersfield up the Tehacipe (sp?) pass summit was Beautiful in the cool morning air. The exhaust steam condensed into a traveling cloud column trailing over the train on its way up grade. After that, the diesel locomotive 'Idled' in the train for the rest of the trip to Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal, where the Train was put on Public Display before moving on to its next scheduled Display Stop.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 07-26-2018 at 09:32 PM. Reason: Correctee typing errors and clarified a point.

  12. #52
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    Thanks for sharing both your interesting small game and plinking centerfire wildcats and, apparently, broad rail knowledge.

    You just answered a question that is harder than you think to get answered. When researched, the sources drift toward to some later very specific or remote specialty or underdeveloped nations use of steam and never, actually, answer when steam went out of "normal" use.
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.

  13. #53
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    I guess the Full answer is A "Painful Local Political" Memory for those normally Posting such vague answers.

    Back during WW2 as A Child I remember The Southern Pacific freights with Steam Locos. alongside 'San Fernando Road', then US Highway 99, through the San Fernando Valley and the Clear Dark Blue Sky in the daytime. However, My Mother complained about the 'Black dust' that accumulated on the window sills almost daily. It was the Soft, porous Carbon from the Locomotive exhaust plumes that had gone up, drifted a bit, and then settled down on exposed surfaces. This went away when the Steam Locomotives were pulled out of L.A. city by City Ordnance.

    They were replaced with Diesel Electric Locomotives in multiple unit strings to pull the same train loads, no Carbon 'dust'; but Aldihides (sp?) Smelling exhaust fumes and a daylight sky turning Gray And Brown in summer replace it.
    Post WW2 more And more people bought Automobiles and greater numbers Trucks filled Highway 99 adding to the Exhaust fume Smells and effects on air quality, at least here in the 'Valley of the Smokes' as the Native America Indians called it.

    Eventually I guess other Areas also complained enough so the Federal Government passed Laws to 'control Smog' and initially we got Acid Exhaust due to the Catalytic Converters added to new automobile Exhaust systems.

    Several years later the Laws were adjusted to also remove the Acids from exhaust gasses. Of course the Manufacturing, Development, Testing and Maintenance costs were added to the Automobile prices.

    When was the Last time you bought a New Car for $4152.00?

    Mine was a 1970 BMW 2002 Two Door that lasted over 374,000 miles of commuting Life. It finally went to the scrappers for $200.00 in 2009 after thieves had stripped it of engine, transmission and Interior over a long weekend when we were away from home. Sigh, a four cylinder 2.0L engine, five adult capacity, Handled 'like a Sports car' and Demonstrated Crash Surviveability, weighed ~2500lbs with full fuel tank, and a Top Rated Speed of 110MPH. I still Have fond Memories of that Car!

    In 1974 my Late father and I took a road trip in it up to San Francisco Bay Area and came home via Highway 1, from Carmel to San Luis Obisbo my 74 year old Father drove while i slept in the passenger seat, he Averaged 62MPH on that twisty Stretch highway!

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 07-26-2018 at 09:40 PM. Reason: Correctedtyping errors.

  14. #54
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    June 30th 2018 approaching midnight and still patiently waiting for my gunsmith to complete my new cylinders.
    According to the shop, he is currently attending a Crew Reunion Gathering in Tombstone celebrating the completion of the Movie of the same name a while ago.
    Happy Fourth Of July everyone!
    Chev. William

  15. #55
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    July 26th and still patently waiting.

  16. #56
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    End of July and beginning of August I and my Pickup were helping friends with Various projects that took somewhat long road trips, some pulling a loaded trailer.
    Tomorrow a friend and his son are borrowing my Pickup for a Trip to Inyokern to do some maintenance work on their rental space there. Thursday, Friday, and half Saturday were involved in moving a friend daughter's Goods from her Boyle Heights rental apartment to storage near Bakersfield in preparation for her leaving for a new Job in Detroit. Hauling the Loaded trailer and pickup up over a ~4200 ft pass with Grades of about 5% to 6% on both sides in 95-100 degree weather and about 55MPH was Interesting.

    Also, The Last Monday in July, I began the Purchase of a Ruger Standard Auto. MKII .22LR Pistol; which in California requires at least ten days to complete.

    This pistol is Used, and has been Modified with some Volquatsen aftermarket items including a Molded Target type grip set.

    My initial plan is to get the pistol converted to CF and fire .22 Ladybug-Repeater loads through it. something like the ".221 Askins"; but slightly smaller in diameter so I may not need to ream the chamber.

    Sometime later, I hope to have a custom Barrel made to convert it to .25ACP/6,35 Browning with something between 7" and 8" finished barrel Length. This part of the plan is more difficult as the Ruger barrel has an integral feed ramp, cuts to clear the extractor, and 'clocked' threads; so these features end up aligned with the rest of the action.

    A .25 ACP Modern version of Col. Askings 1935 National Match champion .22CF Custom Colt Woodsman.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-05-2018 at 11:06 AM.

  17. #57
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    August 9th I was allowed, by California's Purchase Rules, to take Physical Possession of my Used Ruger Standard Auto. MKII Pistol. Instead of A Triggerlock, I disassembled it and removed the Bolt assembly, then Used A Locking Case to carry the Pistol, minus bolt, for The trip home. When I got home I tried a used MKIV Bolt assembly in it and it appears to be functionally Interchangeable.

    The Pistol is now assembled with its MKII bolt assembly And is stored in my Locked Gun Cabinet, while I Ponder modifying the MKIV bolt to Center Fire configuration.

    so far, it seems the Easiest method might be a EDM shop and a Carbon Tool to erode down the firing pin channel to allow a reworked Firing Pin to have its tip Centered in The
    Breech.
    It also appears the easiest Firing Pin modification is to Shear. or Wire EDM, a stock Pin Vertically at the point where the Bottom edge is cut 'Square' as a seat for the Retraction Spring, then invert the tip end and TIG weld the two parts back together.

    Now to find out What the costs would be.

    Since the Exodus of Aerospace Industry from Southern California, It also may be difficult to find a willing EDM Shop nearby. At Least I know a Good Certified Aerospace Weld shop nearby who have done work for me in the past.

    I already have one of The Volquartsen Interchangeable Recoil spring kits; so "tuning" the Action will Be simplified later.

    More Research will be needed before Starting The conversion.
    1. What is the Alloy and Heat Treatment of the Firing Pin?
    2. What is the Alloy and Heat Treatment of the Stock (MKII) Bolt body?
    3. What is the Factory Finish(s) of the Stock bolt body?
    4. What is the Alloy And Heat treatment of the MKIV Bolt body?
    5. What is the Factory Finish(s) of the MKIV Bolt body?

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-27-2018 at 09:43 AM.

  18. #58
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    Searching Locally for a EDM shop is complicated by the deliberately 'Faulty' Google Search Engine Algorithms not Putting LOCAL San Fernando Valley Shops first, instead I found page after page of PAID advertisements for EDM Production Services from Eastern USA and CHINA, Germany, and several other Nations.
    Trying to sort with a Zip Code filter din not work either.
    Still Looking.

    I turned my .25ACP Ruger (minus cylinder) in to my Gunsmith so he can head space the New 8-shot reamed straight wall Chambers to the Frame.
    The 'minus cylinder' was so it could not be considered A complete Fireable Weapon if I was stopped in Transit by a LEO. it was also transported inside a Locked Metal Case.

    Temperatures, but not humidity, has backed off a bit lately, with daytime temperatures below 90 F. the last few days. Humidity is still up above 70%RH so sweating is a 'Sticky Situation' still.

    My outdoor reloading "Shop" has received a Coating of Gray 'ash' and Dust over the Idle, High Temperatures and Humidity, time.
    A 'bit of Cleaning' will be needed before and reloading activity can take place again.
    Not Looking Forward to it yet.
    Chev. William

  19. #59
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    September whether has continued uncomfortable for Outside work in my Patio 'reloading shop' but I have had some progress:
    1. I received Five PT&G Blank die bodies pilot drilled 3/8" through.
    2. I bought off Ebay a 'takeoff' Ruger MKI Barrel and a Ruger MKI 'broken' bolt assembly. The Bolt assembly had a Worn and sheared firing pin retaining pin and a broken Recoil spring assembly, both of which should be Easy replacements.
    This gives me 'models' to measure for possible modifications or replacement machining.
    3. I ordered a pair of 3/4" ID Drill bushings to use as ring gauges to measure channels in the bolt body. They should arrive this week.
    4. I now Have possession of the Ruger MKII .22 pistol so now have physical things to 'play with' in contemplating a conversion project.
    5. An Ebay Purchase gave me a Beretta .25ACP Magazine and it actually fits the Ruger Magazine well, but of course is too Short to function and the feed lips are at a different angle. I wonder if a Ruger 22/45 Pistol handle would match better in feed angle?
    Something to check with my gunsmith and his shop 'bits And pieces' collection.

    Chev. William

  20. #60
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    I have found two EDM shop lisitings in the San Fernando Valley to date.
    The first one did not answer the Listed Phone number.
    The second one did answer, and I made an appointment to discuss my Project Idea.
    the appointment resulted in mixed results, the shop was intrigued by my project but did not currently have Time to take it on; However; the shop provided the name and Phone number of another shop which might do the work and it is Much closer to my home!

    My gunsmith is still out of the shop, involved with a Movie Production, so no progress on my project Cylinders there.

    Patience is a Virtue it is said.

    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check