Resigned to hardening my range scrap

[adam_mac84]

Well, summer has passed, and seen me monkeying with RS for my 9mm. Have gone through 3 different case expanders (2x lyman, Lee 38SW), and I can't finish off the last of the leading in my 9mm loads. It's not the boolit, or the gun, it's getting the damn things in the cases.

I am dipping in to my COWW stash for today's range session, and ordering some Super Hard for alloying up my range scrap. I don't know why it is, but my brain just cant' justify the $0.008/boolit versus free when dealing with RS

Obviously, the search will continue haha...

Been cruising everyone's scores on here recently... great to see .

[William Yanda]

How hard is your RS? How hard do you think you need. Do you need hard or tough? Will you start by checking the analysis of your RS?
Respectfully,
Bill

[adam_mac84]

How hard is my RS. Unknown honestly. Not hard enough. Couple pencils softer than my WCWW. I guess it would be prudent to send some of my RS out to be analyzed.

Litmus test has been dummy rounds and checking final diameter after pulling boolit. I may revisit 50/50 RS and WW. I guess a Lee hardness tester costs about the same as 3 blocks of super hard....

[lightman]

Many shooters have good results with range scrap. Have you played with bullet diameter any? I know there is a big variation in range scrap depending on the type of shooting at said range.

[Idz]

My indoor range scrap is pretty soft at about 8.5BHN. The only way I have been able to use it in 9mm has been to double layer powder coat. In 45acp it works just fine bare but many folks will agree that 9mm is a tough one for soft lead.

[Rcmaveric]

My range scraps comes in around 12-13 BHN on my Lee Hardness tester. Works just fine in my 9MM. RS is really all I can get.

[Hickory]

The first thing I'd consider is the relationship between the groove diameter and the size of your cast boolit.

[Yodogsandman]

How about water dropping the boolits straight from the mold into a bucket of cool water? It should almost double your hardness after waiting a few weeks for maximum age hardening. The price is right.

[popper]

Adam - cast the S.H. into boolits so you can add just a bit at a time. Add just a bit to t he pot of your R.S. to see how much is needed. Load some dummies for fit & function/size, then test/shoot some. If not right, recycle then add a bit more. You can also test WD or AC at this stage. Easier to tweak a pot than make a big batch & then try to figure what to do. 97/3 works for me and doesn't present loading problems or leading, but you don't know your starting point.

[Shingle]

Iv had range scrap so soft the nose would flatten when sizing them after HY-TEC coating I got 1100 fps in my glocks with no leading. They made a hell of a coyote round even round nose expanded. Good luck with the hardening.

[MaryB]

In 9mm the number one cause of leading is not matching boolit to barrel size as mentioned above! Until that is correct you will see leading issues. A possible test would be to powder coat a small batch and try them, that increases the diameter.

[GhostHawk]

If it was me I'd start by water dropping.

#2 would be 50/50 range scrap and COWW with a little tin added.

#3 would be to verify throat size with a chamber cast. So I can confirm what size I need. And then make sure I am getting it.

In my case I had 2 9mm's that had problems, keyholing, leading, shotgun patterns.
Going up in size to a .359 - .360 cast bullet solved all those problems at one go with no change in alloy.

The problem is you have to get the fit sorted first in order to be able to see what else works and what doesn't.

Best of luck to you, try to enjoy the journey. First one with problems is always the worst.

[Bzcraig]

If it was me I'd start by water dropping.

#2 would be 50/50 range scrap and COWW with a little tin added.

#3 would be to verify throat size with a chamber cast. So I can confirm what size I need. And then make sure I am getting it.

In my case I had 2 9mm's that had problems, keyholing, leading, shotgun patterns.
Going up in size to a .359 - .360 cast bullet solved all those problems at one go with no change in alloy.

The problem is you have to get the fit sorted first in order to be able to see what else works and what doesn't.

Best of luck to you, try to enjoy the journey. First one with problems is always the worst.

This is a solid response.

[adam_mac84]

Thanks for the inquiries to my method all.

Yes, it is a sizing issue. I slugged at .355(5). I need to get to at least .357/.358. I have tried both 120 TC and 124 2R molds. I have Zev barrel (also worked with stock glock barrel). Anyhow, to get the boolit to plunk, OAL necessary seems to be pushing the limits on the internal diameter of the case. I can get pulled rounds to .355 and occasionally .356, which is not maintaining enough seal in the barrel I am guessing.

The WCWW hold enough integrity against the case internally that I am able to get the boolit to maintain adequate diameter. So, my options are to go with the harder boolit, or get some barrel work done.

Have gone through .356, .357, .358 and as cast (big after PC). Sizing to .358 has given me best results with the COWW.

Used Lyman 38ap, 38p, lee 38SW expanders. None have fully cured my ills. At this point, it feels like a rabbit hole chasing affair buying more and more junk when hardening the alloy seems to work (COWW VS RS).

Have done workup from low (minimum for reliable cycling) and moving up from there. 231 and TiteGroup. Velocities 1000-1100 FPS. I do try to work for a minor load. But would be happy with a good reliable load and competing with plated if needed. I have a good load for that with powders stated

I do plan to try a bit slower powder, but it seems I am getting some of the blow by early in the barrel, so it made me think I need a better seal early. I will not give up full hope, but I currently have a 4:1 ratio of RS to WW in my stash, so was hoping to make the RS work.

I am going to get my RS analyzed, that is certainly on the short list before I go melting money into the pot.

I appreciate all of your comments and will be taking them all in consideration going forward!!!

Thank you

[adam_mac84]

If it was me I'd start by water dropping.

#2 would be 50/50 range scrap and COWW with a little tin added.

#3 would be to verify throat size with a chamber cast. So I can confirm what size I need. And then make sure I am getting it.

In my case I had 2 9mm's that had problems, keyholing, leading, shotgun patterns.
Going up in size to a .359 - .360 cast bullet solved all those problems at one go with no change in alloy.

The problem is you have to get the fit sorted first in order to be able to see what else works and what doesn't.

Best of luck to you, try to enjoy the journey. First one with problems is always the worst.

#1 . I have been water dropping. Started that way early on, out of convenience, and kept doing it. I played with AC to see if I got better obturation, but did not see huge difference. I have 100 boolits aging for another week or 2 that I plan to test again at .358
#2. I gave a go at 50/50, but do need to revisit. I have never added the tin before. Good fill out, but will give it a go. I think I have some solder around.
#3. I have gone up to .360, forces shorter OAL, causing more case swaging issues.

thank you for your knowledge. I will certainly try some tin to the mix as well!

p.s. I do enjoy the journey, when time permits (don't we all know that problem). I'd love to have a setup I know works and be able to throw and stash few thousand boolits over the winter. As it is, I work about a month ahead at best right now. Aging the boolits may be part of my issue. Usually they have 2 weeks tops on them (after water dropping).

[popper]

If it hardens at all, a few days should be enough. Get some 7-8 shot for As will speed up the hardening. My XDs9 takes 357, not larger, not smaller. Check your SIZED bolits, soft alloy sizes smaller. I use the Lyman 38P expander on range brass. I mostly use isocore (anymore) with a 130gr Accurate mould. HiTek coated - no leading, perfect function. Slight taper crimp with the RCBS die - no Lee FCD for pistol! I bought a lot of high Sb from roto (3-5%) a while back - found it varied in Sb quite a bit. I just use the S.H. to 'standardize' my alloy (mostly for 308). Around here it's $20 a sample for XRF. I can load & shoot a lot for that. If done right, your reloads will probably look wasp-waisted (nature of the beast). How much time do you want to spend tinkering with alloy? Find your working alloy with R.S., save a bunch for testing (squish in a vice with ref. sample) or pencil test. Adjust the next pot full to the same - most R.S. won't be the same from 'lot' to lot. Yes, I've shot pure with some Cu & Zn added, a HOT 190gr load in 40SW. Took 3 months to get decent results. You can add some Zn (~1%) to R.S if it will pour decent.

[retrobass]

What COAL are you using with the Lee 120 TC? Have you tried a Lyman M expander die?

[adam_mac84]

What COAL are you using with the Lee 120 TC? Have you tried a Lyman M expander die?

Yes, 38AP and 38P. Also lee expander 38 S&W
OAL 1.040-1.090 depending on boolit diameter

[P Flados]

Adam, based on your discussions, you efforts sound very similar to my ongoing efforts. You also seem right on the edge of working. If you are using mixed brass, I would suggest at least one batch selected to achieve uniform / least effort seating (more discussion at the bottom of the post).

After much time and effort, I have achieved at least one 9mm that seems to works OK with my range scrap (~ 8 bhn) in my boy's Glock 17 with an aftermarket barrel.

Lee 125 RNFP (129 gr actual), sized to 0.3575", ASBB HF Red, 3.7 gr TightGroup, seated to 1.050" OAL.

Lapping more throat into the aftermarket barrel and the longer seating solved a previous shaving problem (lead buildup at the front of the chamber).

My current expander is a DIY job with a plug that is real close to 0.354" at the location corresponding to the bottom of the boolit (bigger than my 38 Special M Mie, close to what others have reported for their M Die). I may do another one with a target of 0.3555" and no expansion just below the boolit. However, with a bigger plug I worry that loaded rounds may be approaching "too big".

Next trip to the range will also include trying out some Lee 120 TC (124 actual) loaded very similar to the above. These are from my first batch out of a Lee 6 cavity. I poured up at least 15 lbs which is better than 800. I got more wrinkles / surface imperfections than I liked, but few were bad enough to cull and again it was a first batch.

I plan to keep working to get more 9mm choices that "work". I really hope some will let me get closer to book max (4.4 grs of T.G.) and stay lead free and shaving free.

My biggest concern for now is that I think a percentage of my boolits are getting squeezed down too much at the base (real close to barrel groove diameter). Above the grease groove, they are staying closer to 0.356" - 0.3565", but I am not confident that this is good enough.

Last night I did some sampling of my range pickup brass. Blazer, FC (Federal) and Aguila were all about the same and were probably in the range of 0.010" to 0.011" thick at the mouth. Others (at least 2/3 of my brass) were above 0.012" with some (CBC and S-B seemed thickest) pushing 0.013" - 0.014".

The above does not surprize me at all as some boolits seat easy & some require a lot more force.

For my hotter loading efforts I will probably go with sorted brass (one or more of the "thinwall" brands) as I am pretty sure this will help keep the percentage of "marginal" diameter boolits to a minimum.

[gwpercle]

I have had excellent results in the 9 mm Luger with 50-50 range scrap (or pure lead) and COWW, with 1% tin , for castability, and the NOE mould 358-124-TC (GC) , air cooled and sized .357 in a Lyman 450 with Lithi-Bee lubricant and the with the gas check installed .
No leading in 4 different 9 mm's . Make sure you are using a good boolit lube with the 9mm, it demands a decent lubricant.
I have discovered the gas check helps to get the boolit going into the case without deformation. I usually don't use GC's but with the 9mm I do...it sure helps .
Gary