Fun with a S&W Victory 38 S&W cartridge

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta labor in that work by Larry Gibson. Many thanks, sir.

Even the 38/200 loads (3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco) haven't produced any indicia of even warmish pressures in the W-E or the M&P. Only after extended shooting sessions does the need for an extractor come about due to grittiness. Brush out the chambers every 50 rounds or so, and cases fall out via gravity if given the opportunity. Think "22 LR swing-out revolver" in this context.

A few years ago I was shooting both the Colt and its 150 grain SWCs (#358477) and the M&P (202 grain NEI #169A) at iron silhouettes at 25 yards. The 150s made a nice "pa-TINK" sound when hit--the 202 grainers gave a pretty stalwart "WHANG" when they connected. That 50 grains of lead made a difference of some sort.

There have been a number of threads here concerning the 38 S&W in the recent past, and some of those threads have REALLY "gotten legs". People like the little popgun round, and have for a long time. The 38 Special and 357 Magnum have thrown shade on this caliber, which is not really fair. Someone in another thread--Outpost 75, I think--pointed out that the terminal ballistics of the 38 S&W/4"/146 grain bullets differ little from those of a 2" 38 Special that was the mainstay of plainclothes police work for decades. Just sayin'......

The 38 S&W will remain a recreational tool for me. There was a time when a significant portion of my shooting "R&D" was concerned with defensive action training & prep; I still keep the edges sharp with my social iron, but 95% of my shooting these days has to do with hunting prep or just plain fun shooting. The 38 S&W is VERY cheap to reload using cast bullets and its very small sips of powder. If bullets conform to barrel dimensions, the caliber can be quite accurate--sufficiently so to enable small varmint harvesting to 50 yards in the Police Positive or the S&W M&P.

[LouisianaMan]

As someone who has dabbled fairly heavily with this caliber since about 2009, I greatly appreciate all the insight, effort, and analysis presented in this thread. Absolutely awe-inspiring.

Hopefully I will have a great deal more to contribute using vintage factory ammo in the near future, although life has been getting in the way of "science" for quite a while now. I know some of the "Staynless" Winchester ammo I have will not ignite; time will tell whether that box simply got contaminated by some WD-40 or whether the non-corrosive primers of that formula might have been the culprit. Other shooting done with several of the old vintage loads was quite promising, as everything went bang and thwack, with chrony data that was consistent with factory ammo. Some was surprisingly high, with a .38 Colt New Police moving its 150g bullets at 770 fps out of a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 33-1.

More soon! Thanks again to all who have poured their contributions into this thread.

[Buckshot]

..............My thanks and a 'Tip o the hat' to Larry for that interesting shooting information. My take is that that 2.8grs of Red Dot and the HB 150 gr wadcutters was not a problem load pressure wise in the "V" model S&W, but it might have been edging into the 'Warmish' region? Is that your feeling also?

As mentioned elsewhere my nice old Iver Johnson break open 5 shooter gets the same boolit as above but only 1.6grs of Red Dot for 502 fps. Nicely accurate too at 25 yards. That is if your eyeballs are up to the task of dealing with decided "Un-Target" quality sights!

.................Buckshot

[bob208]

I knew a deputy sheriff many years ago he had to supply his own gun his father gave him s&w victory he had. this deputy carried it with factory loads. then I started loading for him. I was using 358429 with unique powder. it barked more and shot good. about a year I found him a reloading outfit. he used that gun for 3 more years. then got a .38 spl. and let his wife have the victory for a house gun.

[9.3X62AL]

I knew a deputy sheriff many years ago he had to supply his own gun his father gave him s&w victory he had. this deputy carried it with factory loads. then I started loading for him. I was using 358429 with unique powder. it barked more and shot good. about a year I found him a reloading outfit. he used that gun for 3 more years. then got a .38 spl. and let his wife have the victory for a house gun.

Yessir. I am not about to stand downrange with a baseball glove while someone shoots a 38 S&W to scrounge & salvage bullet metal. A few comments made by the Cammy Jammy Cadre regarding the 38 S&W almost imply belief in such a course of conduct. Like most of the drivel driven by that lot, it is nonsense.

[Larry Gibson]

"My take is that that 2.8grs of Red Dot and the HB 150 gr wadcutters was not a problem load pressure wise in the "V" model S&W, but it might have been edging into the 'Warmish' region? Is that your feeling also?"

Buckshot

Yes that load might be a bit "warm" as it is edging into 38 SPL +P pressures. Better would be the 2.5 gr BE load which runs right at what the factory 38 S&W loads ran. In a 77+ year old Victory model in good condition it should prove a good load.

[Outpost75]

dupe post deleted, substituted new eye candy

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[9.3X62AL]

In an earlier post I mentioned a 4" S&W Regulation Police revolver. I got to shake hands with it recently, and it ran My Usual 38 S&W Suspect Load (#358477 atop 3.0 grains of Unique) with decent accuracy from its .359"-sized bullets. Zero leading after 100 rounds, too. After clean-up I did a tale of the tape on the cylinder throats--all will pass a .361" pin gauge, none would pass the .362". Modest pressures were obliging enough to not plate the bore with metal from the slightly undersized bullets.

ETA--this purchase prompted another purchase, and a long-delayed one that should have been made many years ago--The Standard Catalog Of S&W Firearms. Web search for year of manufacture is a dog's breakfast, with the common ingredient being referral to this tome. Done deal. It's enroute.

[Outpost75]

As FYI for the group, antique nose cut-off die I have to "convert" .38 S&W 146-grain LRN ammo to 140-grain LFN with 0.25" meplat is 1.08" long and was fabricated from a cut-off Beretta M1934 pistol barrel, the chamber and rifling having been reamed out with a metric 10mm or SAE letter size "W" drill bit, so that the .38 S&W cartridges would enter, then hardened. Noses of bullets are easily clipped off with a sharp pocket knife or bandage shears, then trimmed up with a file or single-edged razor blade.

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Result is a larger meplat with better defined shape than the factory loaded .38 Colt New Police cartridge, shown at left of die, and again shown enlarged next to .38 S&W in center photo, and a higher angle view of trimmed meplat at right:

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[Buckshot]

..............Ah, when first simply looking at the photo's, at first it was a swaged design with a RN inside a FN cylinder Now I understand it to be a portion of the barrel used as a gage to file of the RN boolit into a FN design Simple minds, don't ya know!

.................Buckshot

[LouisianaMan]

That meplat is a beauty! After I finally do my long-delayed chrony work with this caliber, I wonder if I could make something like this from a wrench socket? Perfect to convert modern LRNs, not to mention some of the old 740-770 fps commercial .38 CNP loads!

[Outpost75]

That meplat is a beauty! After I finally do my long-delayed chrony work with this caliber, I wonder if I could make something like this from a wrench socket? Perfect to convert modern LRNs, not to mention some of the old 740-770 fps commercial .38 CNP loads!

I have a "set" of these now for .22 LR, .32 S&W Long, .38 S&W and .38 Special. The .22 LR was from Hanned Precision. The others are either old gunsmith-made or modern repros I had done. A chunk of cut-off rifle barrel, chambered to fit, ground square on the ends and case-hardened works fine.

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Here's what they look like in .38 Spl. LRN, converted old Western Lubably 1940s...

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After trimming to flat-nose, the old Western 158 LRN cartridge OAL is 1.40" and bullet weight reduced from 158 grains to 146 grains. Just the thing you need to carry in your old S&W Victory or 1905 Hand Ejector which can't stomach +P loads. Fired into water jugs from 2 inch snubby the modified bullet no longer tumbles, but bores straight through 30 inches of water jugs, and was found lying on the bench in the jug array, resembling a blunted wadcutter. I have LOTS of .38 LRN ammo gleaned from garage and estate sales, and every night watching re-runs of NYPD Blue or Law & Order in the "man cave", I trim up a box, repack it and return it to my Zombie Hoard...

Here are what the .32s look like:

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I would encourage Buckshot or any other gunsmith entrepreneur here to make these available, or possibly an over-grown, Paco Kelly style "Accurizer" to turn factory .38 LRNs into cup-point manstopper bullets.

[LouisianaMan]

I, too, was wondering whether Buckshot might be interested in such a project....

The .38 S&W and .32 SWL appeal to me particularly, as effective ammo types are rare for them.

What does your modified .32 bullet weigh? Any idea of velocity or penetration on it? An accurate gun, load, shooter, amd it sure cuts square holes!

[Outpost75]

I, too, was wondering whether Buckshot might be interested in such a project....

The .38 S&W and .32 SWL appeal to me particularly, as effective ammo types are rare for them.

What does your modified .32 bullet weigh? Any idea of velocity or penetration on it? An accurate gun, load, shooter, amd it sure cuts square holes!

Depends a bit on bullet profile, but the PMC LRNs I tested weighed 90 grains after cutting off to 1.13" Ctg. OAL and did three gallon milk jugs and dented the far side without making a hole in the far end of the 4th, about 24 inches of water penetration. Not bad for 700 fps or so.

.32 S&W Long Factory Vs. Handloads In Revolvers and H&R “Bunny Rifle”

Remington cases, Federal 200 primers in all handloads:

Ammo Type________________Colt 2”__________Colt 4”___________H&R18”

PMC 98 LRN factory__________687, 13 Sd_______797, 17Sd________945, 16 Sd
Highest velocity factory load___103 ft-lbs._______138 ft.lbs.________194 ft.-lbs.

Remington 98 LRN factory_____645, 20 Sd______729, 12 Sd________899, 11 Sd

Western 98 LRN factory (1960s)_643, 19 Sd_____658, 22 Sd________912, 17 Sd

Privi-Partisan 98 LRN__________656, 28 Sd______675, 11 Sd_______917, 21 Sd

Accurate 31-087T, 2.5 BE______662, 16 Sd______780, 22 Sd_______1000, 15 Sd
Shoots to the fixed sights______84-ft.-lbs._______117 ft.-lbs.______193 ft.-lbs.

Accurate 31-090B, 2.5 BE_______731, 26 Sd_______773, 11 Sd______1066, 16 Sd
Shoots to the fixed sights_______106 ft.-lbs.______119 ft.lbs.______227 ft.-lbs.

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For those wanting to cast, depending upon what bullet weight you need to shoot to your sights, one of these Accurate designs should do the trick. 31-090B approximates the factory bullet after cutoff. 31-105B follows the shape of factory .32 Colt NP and .32-20 lead bullets.

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[Outpost75]

FYI, latest mold 36-190T I recently spec’ed and ordered at Accurate, is based upon 36-200T, which was ordered by its original customer for the .380-200 British cartridge used in the S&W 1905 Hand Ejector British Purchasing Commission pre-Victory.

The differences in my adaptation are:

Shortening the 200T’s 0.50” length nose with .18 meplat (.5 of bullet diameter) to .442” length north of the crimp groove.

This provides a 0.255” meplat (0.7 of bullet diameter).

The shorter nose now stays within 1.59” OAL when loaded in .38 Special brass.

I also had added a .03 bevel base added for ease of loading.

Based on previous testing with the NOE clone of the Mk1 bullet, I'm figuring 2.0-2.2 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup in the .38 S&W for 600 fps and 3.7 grs. AutoComp for 700 fps (+P) to be used in the Ruger India Model Service Six only.

3.0-3.2 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special should give 700 fps, standard pressure
3.5 grains OK for use in the .38 Special Ruger Service Six for 800 fps (+P) and similarly sturdy revolvers.

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