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Thread: Born in Sin, or conceived in sin

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Born in Sin, or conceived in sin

    Psa 51:5
    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Psa 51:5
    Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

    The first interpretation is KJV, the second NIV. They seem to be saying completely different things. The first that his conception was from a sinful act, and the second that the very act of being conceived and born made him a sinner, or transgressor (if sin is a transgression of God's law). If nothing sinful can enter in, does this mean all the unborn are condemned to hell?

    I invite your thoughts.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Ickisrulz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Psa 51:5
    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Psa 51:5
    Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

    The first interpretation is KJV, the second NIV. They seem to be saying completely different things. The first that his conception was from a sinful act, and the second that the very act of being conceived and born made him a sinner, or transgressor (if sin is a transgression of God's law). If nothing sinful can enter in, does this mean all the unborn are condemned to hell?

    I invite your thoughts.
    Exactly how a sinful nature is passed from parent to child is not fully understood and debated. My thought is that it has something to do with the physical body, sort of like a birth defect we are all born with. My reason for thinking this is that eventually Christians will receive a new body and sin no more.

    Sex within a marriage is not sinful as pointed out many times in the Bible.

    Are all unborn condemned to hell? How about infants, the mentally disabled, aborted, etc? I trust God to deal with these people in a loving manner.

    The Book of Psalms is a wonderful collection. But it is not the best place to get our doctrine/theology as it contains man's observations, exasperated cries and frustrations (e.g., Psalm 137:9).

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    I don't think it matters if "sin" is genetically transferred via some sin gene or caught soon after birth like a virus. What does matter is that "All have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God", and that Jesus is the antidote for the consequences of sin. Anything more is just arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or some such other useless discussion, that divides Christians, rather that unifying them around a mutual core belief.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    On quick research of what amounts to Bible - page 1, it appears that mankind - both male and female - was created and told to "be fruitful and multiply" before there was any mention of Adam, Eve and serpents.

    Then there's the sticky situation of repopulating the earth starting with only Noah, his wife, their three sons and their three wives as a gene pool.

    Given that this would appear to be core elements of "The Plan", it seems problematic that the act of sex (even within family trees that do no fork) should be something to ink up the Sin Stamp over. When we include your later passage which seems to indicate that it IS, perhaps the passage about "embracing" in the Book of Ecclesiastes would serve better if translated as:

    "A time to boink women like bunnies; a time for spanking your monkeys
    A time chasing men has it's spice; a time to double-click your mice"


    Tell me THAT wouldn't have made for a really good verse in the Byrds' song.
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Slug, would you care to add insight into what you post? Is it simply scoffing?

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    No scoffing (well, not too much) - just my observation on things some people choose to agonize over. It would seem that if you were put here to play a part, it would be hard to fathom your arrival as sinful.
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    IMO this comes from Original Sin, in the garden, listening to the serpent, eating the forbidden fruit. This it was that angered God. Causing him to see all born of those two to be tarred with the same brush.

    God had his greatest creation, and right off the bat he see's that it is flawed. No longer sacred and righteous.

    I have a little issue with this. Minor one perhaps, but if he was really that all seeing, all knowing, all powerful would God not have made that fruit harder to get? Or kept the Serpent out of the Garden? Or foreseen it happening and taken better steps?

    Maybe the Angels distracted him.

    Yes he reminds me of my father some days. Man when he was unhappy he could thunder. He could also be blind, pigheaded, wrong headed, shortsighted and judgemental as heck. Yes my father was human, same as we are. And when God made us some of him must have come into us. So is there any chance he has some of our same problems? Not for me to know.

    As I see it, everything since he tossed Adam and Eve out of the Garden has been him trying to get us back one way or another. Eventually IMO he sent his first born son to be born on Earth as a sacrifice. A blood offering to cleanse that sin. To cleanse all of us that accept him.

    As I see it, we all have parts of us that we are not proud of, that cause us to do things that later we wish we had not done. I see God the Father as being no different in that regard. In fact in some ways it seems to make him easier to connect with.

    He understands. He may not agree, or approve, or like but he understands.

    Just my opinion, but what do I know? I'm just a self educated farm boy who has been lazy about reading his bible.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    IMO this comes from Original Sin, in the garden, listening to the serpent, eating the forbidden fruit. This it was that angered God. Causing him to see all born of those two to be tarred with the same brush.

    God had his greatest creation, and right off the bat he see's that it is flawed. No longer sacred and righteous.

    I have a little issue with this. Minor one perhaps, but if he was really that all seeing, all knowing, all powerful would God not have made that fruit harder to get? Or kept the Serpent out of the Garden? Or foreseen it happening and taken better steps?

    Maybe the Angels distracted him.
    God created humankind with free will (the power of choice). We have the ability to stand with God or fall from God. For reasons known only to God, He wanted us to love and follow him by choice, not by compulsion. Without free will there is no real meaningful choice.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    God created humankind with free will (the power of choice). We have the ability to stand with God or fall from God. For reasons known only to God, He wanted us to love and follow him by choice, not by compulsion. Without free will there is no real meaningful choice.

    This alone is enough to convince me that we are born pure in spirit with God, no matter what the physical circumstances involved in our bodily creation.

    You see, I remember my first sin! It had to be close to 50 yards ago now, but I remember it like yesterday. I stole an item from a store. I made an elaborate plan to convince my folks I'd found it, a twofer, Stealing then lying. My folks never had a clue, but God knew, and convicted me of it, I had sinned against God, not just the store and my folks. I know I'm forgiven because of Christ love for me! Until that time I was innocent of sin, at that time I made a choice to steal and lie. Later I made another decision, to follow Christ, trust him!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Fever is not an illness in and of itself. It is a symptom of an infection or disorder in the body. Just so a sinful acts is just a symptom of a much larger systemic problem in our beings. We are a people who place self interest and self control over God interest and God control.

    People have debated for eons whether sin is caught or taught. We have but to look at two small children playing and one takes away the others toy. I don't know where it comes from, but we have it very early on. The older we get, the more obvious and egregious becomes our sinful acts, until we ourselves see it for what it is.

    Sin if left to fester and grow will some day become "just the way things are", and we no longer are able to feel remorse and regret for grieving the heart of God. When we reach that stage, we are in serious trouble, but are not aware of it. This is why daily confession and repentance is so important, lest our hearts grow hard.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master




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    When Jesus mentioned a man must be born again in John 3 (born of the Spirit), the passage clearly communicates our birth of the flesh is contrary to the brith through the Spirit so is easy to conclude the sin is through the flesh. Compare 1Cor 6:15-16. Also Jer 17: 9-10 speaks of the heart (of the flesh). That is also why this flesh must die, it cannot enter into heaven.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    There has got to be a reason why this verse was "translated" into words that are nearly polar opposite in the thought they convey. I can't for the life of me see the latter as anything other than a miss translation for the purpose of propping up a preconceived theology of the latter translator, but that's just MY thoughts on it.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I have some thoughts on the "conceived in sin" scenario.

    If you are working on a conception, to do the job right, both parties should at least feel like they sinned--a little!!!! Ha!!!!

  14. #14
    Boolit Master claude's Avatar
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    I suppose that in it's proper context, Psa. 51 is about flesh, and flesh is basically sin.

    Rom 7:13-15 KJV Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    and again,

    Rom 8:5-8 KJV For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


    It has little to do with the act of procreation itself, which is not sin in it's proper context. God indeed set forth the command.

    Gen 1:28 KJV And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    again,

    Gen 9:1 KJV And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

    That multiplying thing means procreation, and the act of it is not sin in and of itself.


    The notion of passing sin from generation to generation won't fly because God says it doesn't happen, we do our own sinning. We pay our own debts, unless of course we repent, then the debt has been paid for us. But no where does the notion that we incur the sins of our ancestors find traction in the word. Men might twist it to suit their purposes, but God does not require me to pay for anothers sin.

    Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    and again,

    Jer 31:29-30 KJV In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. (30) But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    Your mileage may indeed vary, but this allows me to understand these passages relieving any conflict.

    And before someone jumps in and throws Exo. 34:7 at us claiming it is the sins of the father being passed on,

    Exo 34:6-7 KJV And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, (7) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    The sins that are taught from generation to generation and committed from generation to generation are the responsibility of each person who does those sins, not inherited from prior generations.

    It is all so incredibly simple when we let God's Word explain it.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    I been watching this thread for awhile, and gonna jump in, please excuse me if any of you disagree.
    At my workplace there was a Baptist, and a Catholic, no this is not a joke, it is real.
    I do think there is 2 different schools of thought on this, (2 different school of Theology)
    The Baptist guy was always seemingly bothered that man was 'born into sin', and all man must make good with the Lord to get to the pearly gates.
    The Catholic guy was of the opinion that man is born innocent, and he sins when he fall unto temptation,
    Both agree that man must be in good standing with the Lord to get to the pearly gates,
    and both roads to the perly gates are equally difficult to navigate.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    As a Mormon I tend to read more into Mark 10:14 where the savior says that little children are the kingdom of God. So, in my mind, neither. Until you are old enough to comprehend your actions as sinful, then you are saved.

    This also aligns with my train of rational thinking on the matter. God created us, including the process of conception and birth. If there is anything inherently sinful about those processes, then it came from God, who can longer be perfect if His creations are not perfect. And if He is no longer perfect, He is not God.

    So for me, it's gotta be neither. And the Psalmist said a lot of things that don't really stand up to scrutiny.
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