Turnbull 1886

[rldarmstr]

Maybe this is common knowledge to everyone else but it news to me. I bought a Turnbull 1886 Winchester copy a while back. More recently I decided to put a tang sight on it. My eyes are old and the tang sight helps greatly. In mounting the tang sight I found the rear tang screw was not long enough. My thread checker seemed to indicate that the screw was a 1/4X40 thread. I can make a screw on my lath but I had difficulty in getting a 1/4X40 die so I emailed Turnbull to verify the thread and also ask if they had screws for tang sights.

What I found out is that the rear tang screw on the Turnbull 1886 is metric thread. (5.5X05) When I asked, "Why in the world would someone use an obscure metric thread on a Winchester copy?", the answer I received was "The base for our Turnbull 1886 rifle is the receiver made for Winchester by Miroku in Japan. We get them in here and the first thing we do is complete the tang safety conversion and half cock conversion like an original 1886. We also drill and tap the second hole in the tang for the tang sight and tap it to original 10-36. We cannot change any of the metric screws."

To my way of thinking, their first mistake was using a Jap made receiver for another company (Winchester). Second mistake was Winchester using metric threads for their own copy. Had I known this prior to purchasing the gun I would have gone another route, for a lot less money.

Very disappointed!

[osteodoc08]

Miroku actually makes very finely crafted firearms. Both the citori and 1886 for certain as I have each. It far exceeds anything being put out by Henry or Remlin in terms of finish and quality, not to say Henry and Remlin are bad. The Browning branded 1886s are more faithful copies than the Winchesters BTW. Too bad their prices are redicukous on sites like GunBroker.

Fear not, use the correct screw and enjoy our finely crafted firearm that will last several lifetimes.

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree with osteodoc. As much as I dislike an American classic like Winchester being made elsewhere, they are putting out a quality product much better than anything Remington is now making.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Miroku makes a damn fine gun, not only Winchester's but high end Browning too. Winchester and Browning are today and for some time, just a trademarked brand name used under license. There is no such thing as Winchester or Browning anymore. All the guns sold with those names are guns made by someone else or guns that are wholly-owned, designed and branded by someone else and they are imported here with a different brand name and model and maybe some small changes. Just like all the Springfield XD pistols. Those are Croatian made gun by HS Produckt with the Springfield name slapped on it. LOTS of guns are that way today, sold under a brand that is just a name. There isn't a Winchester or Browning or Springfield factory machining out guns anymore. Turnbull really didn't have any feasible options for a new canvas to build off of apart from making it all from scratch and Miroku is a fine stand-in. If it were mine I would be only slightly annoyed they just didn't use the same metric thread as it came instead of two mixes of fastener types.

[NSB]

I had Turnbull rework a new Winchester/Miroku 1886 for me and do the CCH, lengthen the throat (there is virtually no throat in the Winchester since it is made to SAAMI specs), and added a modern recoil pad on the stock. When done and complete the gun will shoot five shots in 1.5" at a measured 114 yards and functions flawlessly. Winchester proper hasn't made a lever gun in many, many years. Miroku makes outstanding quality firearms, second in quality to no one. Your complaints against Turnbull and/or Winchester amount to nothing. You've ended up with an outstanding firearm and any perceived problems you're finding don't amount to a hill of beans. There is nothing seriously wrong with what you're describing and it in no way effects the quality or value of the gun. If you're that unhappy with it just sell it. There are lots of buyers who will take it off your hands for what you have in to it. If you want a true Winchester, made in the USA, be prepared to pay a lot and perhaps get a more than well used firearm. FWIW, I've had Turnbull do a couple of guns for me and they stand behind what they sell and their reputation speaks for itself.

[Randy Bohannon]

I would put the Miroku made guns against any of the modern incarnations of historical lever guns.I would also take the Miroku gun 10 out of 10 times. If I had a complaint on any of them it would be rebound hammers and tang safeties, legitimate complaints for sure but can be worked around.

[EMC45]

Miroku AND Howa are both good Japanese gunmakers. Howa made the Smith and Wesson rifles and shotguns from years back and they also make some of the Weatherby rifles too.

[rldarmstr]

My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

[Shawlerbrook]

Wish they(Miroku)would make Marlins, metric screws and all.

[sac]

what tang sight did you use, Marble lists the metric ones for the Miroku.

[NSB]

My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

Restoration is wonderful....if you can get any to restore. Turnbull will restore your gun if you take it to them. As far as manufacturing, no one makes quality receivers and parts for these guns as well as Miroku does. Turnbull did try to use Pedersoli guns a couple of years ago and didn't get the quality results they were looking for. You seem to be pretty confused about what Turnbull does. They don't manufacture complete guns from scratch and they don't tell anyone that they do. There are NO DOMESTICALLY MANUFACTURED receivers to use for these guns. Winchester went out of business several years ago and the supply of good condition receivers is close to ZERO. You're not very well informed about any of this and you seem to be on a quest to bash someone whether it be Turnbull, Miruko, or Winchester (just a trade name anymore, not a manufacturer of lever guns). Do a little more research before you spend your money. If you're not happy at this point you only have yourself to blame. Miruko uses metric threads and they're making the guns. That's just the way it is. Maybe you should just buy a Marlin 45-70 and have Turnbull CCH it and slick it up. They'll do a fine job on any gun you send in to them. Had you done a bit of research before buying you wouldn't be crying now....about next to nothing. Sorry, it's just not a problem to anyone but you. I don't think they're going to change how they do things when everyone else is happy and one person isn't.

[country gent]

Turnbull can request standard threads ( SAE NEF) but then its a special run and costs go up on the receivers due to swapping out tooling back and forth for each run. Not sure how much extra this would cost but it would be passed along to the consumer

[Char-Gar]

My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

Doug Turnbull has never hidden any facts about the firearms he produces. I don't have one, but I certainly knew he uses finished Miroku receivers. If you didn't know, that is one you.

[Eldon]

Perhaps before anyone starts messing with a custom rifle, it might be prudent to contact the maker ????

Knowing Doug since he was a toddler as well as having 2 complete restorations done by him, I can't think of a straighter shooter in the business.

[Edward]

Maybe this is common knowledge to everyone else but it news to me. I bought a Turnbull 1886 Winchester copy a while back. More recently I decided to put a tang sight on it. My eyes are old and the tang sight helps greatly. In mounting the tang sight I found the rear tang screw was not long enough. My thread checker seemed to indicate that the screw was a 1/4X40 thread. I can make a screw on my lath but I had difficulty in getting a 1/4X40 die so I emailed Turnbull to verify the thread and also ask if they had screws for tang sights.

What I found out is that the rear tang screw on the Turnbull 1886 is metric thread. (5.5X05) When I asked, "Why in the world would someone use an obscure metric thread on a Winchester copy?", the answer I received was "The base for our Turnbull 1886 rifle is the receiver made for Winchester by Miroku in Japan. We get them in here and the first thing we do is complete the tang safety conversion and half cock conversion like an original 1886. We also drill and tap the second hole in the tang for the tang sight and tap it to original 10-36. We cannot change any of the metric screws."

To my way of thinking, their first mistake was using a Jap made receiver for another company (Winchester). Second mistake was Winchester using metric threads for their own copy. Had I known this prior to purchasing the gun I would have gone another route, for a lot less money.

Very disappointed!

Perhaps as you learn you will appreciate the fine workmanship that has been provided ,or maybe not as that depends on you (not Turnbull) !

[Greg G]

From a machinist...threads are threads. I would just get the right screw for it and not worry about it. I can understand the surprise though. I went through that I while back with cars that used a combination of English and Metric bolts. Very confusing.

[sharps4590]

Re-branding firearms is certainly nothing new. Sears, Western Auto and a host of others did it in this country for decades. How many single barrel shotguns did Crescent make and stamp another name on it? If one picks up an older British or German firearm with a few exceptions it's likely the name on the barrel was not the maker of the gun. I have a Reilly stamped British double and Reilly never made a gun in his life.

[Traffer]

Miroku actually makes very finely crafted firearms. Both the citori and 1886 for certain as I have each. It far exceeds anything being put out by Henry or Remlin in terms of finish and quality, not to say Henry and Remlin are bad. The Browning branded 1886s are more faithful copies than the Winchesters BTW. Too bad their prices are redicukous on sites like GunBroker.

Fear not, use the correct screw and enjoy our finely crafted firearm that will last several lifetimes.

++ what he said.
Good thing you did your homework. There are many sae-metric threads that are very close and make it confusing. Always good to get it from the maker what they actually used. This is not the last time you are going to encounter metric threads on things you think are SAE. It is happening more and more as Japanese. Chinese and European stuff gets more common here.

[John Taylor]

I don't know why you are complaining, the originals did not use a standard screw size. I had to have a custom tap made, .205-28.

[KCSO]

Mirouku makes good guns and has been supplying them to us for years...Charles Daly, Winchester, Browning, Ithaca... and I probably missed a few on the way. The Winchester sxs shotguns were never Winchester but were Jap. Brownells sells the extended screw you need and actually notes in the catalog under tang sights SCREW NEEDED.