RotoMetals2Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionLoad Data
Inline FabricationWidenersReloading EverythingRepackbox
MidSouth Shooters Supply
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 37 of 37

Thread: Turnbull 1886

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,900
    Quote Originally Posted by rldarmstr View Post
    Maybe this is common knowledge to everyone else but it news to me. I bought a Turnbull 1886 Winchester copy a while back. More recently I decided to put a tang sight on it. My eyes are old and the tang sight helps greatly. In mounting the tang sight I found the rear tang screw was not long enough. My thread checker seemed to indicate that the screw was a 1/4X40 thread. I can make a screw on my lath but I had difficulty in getting a 1/4X40 die so I emailed Turnbull to verify the thread and also ask if they had screws for tang sights.

    What I found out is that the rear tang screw on the Turnbull 1886 is metric thread. (5.5X05) When I asked, "Why in the world would someone use an obscure metric thread on a Winchester copy?", the answer I received was "The base for our Turnbull 1886 rifle is the receiver made for Winchester by Miroku in Japan. We get them in here and the first thing we do is complete the tang safety conversion and half cock conversion like an original 1886. We also drill and tap the second hole in the tang for the tang sight and tap it to original 10-36. We cannot change any of the metric screws."

    To my way of thinking, their first mistake was using a Jap made receiver for another company (Winchester). Second mistake was Winchester using metric threads for their own copy. Had I known this prior to purchasing the gun I would have gone another route, for a lot less money.
    .
    Very disappointed!

    You can buy a 5.5mm x 0.5 die from China for about $11 postage paid on eBay. Whatever people say about Chinese thread tooling, it will be amply good for one-time use on a tang screw. 5.5mm is about .2165in., and the external diameter of a Unified No.12 screw is .216in. I think the Brownells blank screw kit in No.12 would be long enough, at $6.95. If it isn't, the new screw would have to be turned. But the Brownells ones have a very narrow slot, usable as-is, or which you can widen. I use a fine hacksaw blade with the ondulations of the edge belt-sanded flat. General-purpose hardware screws have a wide slot on the principle that a screwdriver needs to outwear hundreds of screws, but a narrower slot and blade suits gun work better.
    x
    It has to be acknowledged that Miroku do some of the best factory gunsmithing, in measurements that aren't exotic to them. Muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the corn.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 09-15-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #22
    Moderator

    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ojai CA
    Posts
    9,872
    Or you could have bought one of Turnbull's already restored real live Winchester 1886's. They usually start around $25K. They are really nice and you wouldn't have to deal with the Future Regret of having Metric Screws that you are probably never going to remove.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  3. #23
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    18
    Well I'll tell you why I'm complaining; I'm 71 and have dealt with American Standard screws all my life. Some on guns some on other things. I have many taps and dies and on an American gun I expect the have non-metric screws. I suppose if everything worked out with Turnbull making the rear screw metric and the front screw American standard there there would be no problem but that isn't the case.

    The people at Turnbull told me to contact Marbles (that's the sight I'm trying to use) so I did. I gave them the metric specs that the people at Turnbull gave me in our email correspondence. The screw from Marbles arrived today and guess what, it's too small a diameter. It just falls through the threaded hole in the lower tang. So now I have to contact Turnbull to see if they gave me bad information or if Marbles made a mistake. The paperwork from Marbles states that it is a M5X5.5 which I guess is the same as what Turnbull told me 5.5X05? And then I will probably have to call Marbles again and try to get a correct screw (whatever that is), then I have the return the screw I got that is wrong.

    it's just an unnecessary big *** hassle when it shouldn't be.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    UPSTATE new york
    Posts
    1,722
    i agree with all of it, and no gun should leave the shop without the proper screws just ridiculous

  5. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    Please don't take this the wrong way. If I were you I would spend some time familiarizing myself with metric threads. It really is not that hard. The easiest way is to start comparing them to SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) standards. After a while it gets easier just like metric wrenches ... like 12 mm is close to 1/2 in.
    Here are a few web pages that might help:
    http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/l...inch-to-mm.htm
    https://littlemachineshop.com/refere...DrillSizes.pdf
    https://www.cefns.nau.edu/Groups/fab...SizeCharts.pdf

  6. #26
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    18
    I appreciate the helpful intent of your post but at this stage of my life and for this situation I don't think I will go that route. I have done just that in years past; grabbed a book and educated myself on whatever it was that I needed an education on, but not this time.

    Turnbull started this by using a combination of metric and standard screws on the same piece. The situation was compounded by either Turnbull giving me the wrong info on the screw that I needed or by Marbles supplying me the wrong screw.

    Had Turnbull used American Standard screws universally on this piece I could have solved the problem myself and be shooting instead of looking at more calling and emailing and time spent.

    Sorry if this sounds overly negative but that's the way I feel about it. Had I known that the screws were a mix of metric and standard on Turnbull's 1886, I probably would have not bought the gun.

  7. #27
    Moderator

    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ojai CA
    Posts
    9,872
    I think YOU probably misunderstood the actual thread call out .

    The actual metric size would be M5 x.5 not what you wrote above. The M5 part denotes 5 MM in major diameter. The .5 part denotes the thread pitch which is .5MM or .5MM between the tops of the threads.

    5mm is .1965". and .5 mm is just under .020" at .01965" or very close to 40 TPI,,, but not exactly the same.

    You sound pretty miffed about all this and I would suggest selling that gun and removing all this anxiety from your world. Life is too short to worry about such trivial things, and if you can't stop worrying about them I recommend eliminating them.

    You should have mounted a receiver sight on that gun anyway. Then you wouldn't have this problem and it would be much more accurate.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Randy Bohannon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Buffalo WY
    Posts
    919
    The Win/Miroku 1886 and 1873 share the same tang sight hole spacing and threading. I went with the MVA sight on my 1873,recieved the correct screws with a fantastic tang sight.They also make the Marbles style peep sight for your rifle,worth every penny and be done with it.

  9. #29
    Banned








    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    munising Michigan
    Posts
    17,725
    no different then Clements or John Linebaugh building guns on ruger frames.
    Quote Originally Posted by rldarmstr View Post
    My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

  10. #30
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    18

    Turnbull gave wrong info

    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I think YOU probably misunderstood the actual thread call out .

    The actual metric size would be M5 x.5 not what you wrote above. The M5 part denotes 5 MM in major diameter. The .5 part denotes the thread pitch which is .5MM or .5MM between the tops of the threads.

    5mm is .1965". and .5 mm is just under .020" at .01965" or very close to 40 TPI,,, but not exactly the same.

    You sound pretty miffed about all this and I would suggest selling that gun and removing all this anxiety from your world. Life is too short to worry about such trivial things, and if you can't stop worrying about them I recommend eliminating them.

    You should have mounted a receiver sight on that gun anyway. Then you wouldn't have this problem and it would be much more accurate.

    Randy
    I didn't misunderstand because it was through email correspondence that Turnbull supplied the information. I have it on hard copy. They (Turnbull) gave me incorrect information. Marbles supplied me with the correct screw.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    2,502
    Quote Originally Posted by rldarmstr View Post
    I didn't misunderstand because it was through email correspondence that Turnbull supplied the information. I have it on hard copy. They (Turnbull) gave me incorrect information. Marbles supplied me with the correct screw.
    It's not wrong when you don't understand it. Turnbull has been doing these guns for a very long time and I don't think they're even a little bit confused about any of it. Post a copy of the email and let's see what it says.

  12. #32
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    18
    I'm having difficulty uploading the documents and there are peoples names on these documents that I don't want to show so I'm cutting and pasting.

    This came from Turnbull

    Robert: The screw size is 10-36 for the front screw (short) and 5.5X05 metric for the rear(long ) screw. The head size is different for Marbles, Lyman and others .You should be able to order screws for whoever made the sight. We do not stock them, but order them if we need to from Marbles, Lyman or Brownells.


    This is Marbles order after I spoke with them and gave them the diameter of the original rear tang screw.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Marbles.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	54.0 KB 
ID:	204632

    As you can see the screw was an M6 not a 05 or M5 as the guy at Turnbull specified.

    I have the correct screw now so this is all a mute point I suppose? It was a ordeal that I personally think should not have happened. And, I still have a problem with anyone using multiple screw types (metric/standard) on the same finished product. It disturbs my sense of order.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    12,820
    Quote Originally Posted by rldarmstr View Post
    I'm having difficulty uploading the documents and there are peoples names on these documents that I don't want to show so I'm cutting and pasting.

    This came from Turnbull

    Robert: The screw size is 10-36 for the front screw (short) and 5.5X05 metric for the rear(long ) screw. The head size is different for Marbles, Lyman and others .You should be able to order screws for whoever made the sight. We do not stock them, but order them if we need to from Marbles, Lyman or Brownells.


    This is Marbles order after I spoke with them and gave them the diameter of the original rear tang screw.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Marbles.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	54.0 KB 
ID:	204632

    As you can see the screw was an M6 not a 05 or M5 as the guy at Turnbull specified.

    I have the correct screw now so this is all a mute point I suppose? It was a ordeal that I personally think should not have happened. And, I still have a problem with anyone using multiple screw types (metric/standard) on the same finished product. It disturbs my sense of order.
    An ordeal..really? It disturbs your sense of order? You must have a mega dose of OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) as there are not many folks who think your screw issue would be an ordeal. It would be a minor irritant at best.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master

    dragon813gt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in SE PA
    Posts
    9,989
    I happen to agree w/ the OP that all the screws should either be SAE or metric. Mixing on the same firearm is a bit ridiculous. But only in the US would someone complain about metric screws. We would be a lot better off if we switched to what the rest of the world uses. Makes it a real pain when I'm working in a foreign country on one of the units the company I work for makes. Finding SAE parts locally is pretty much an impossibility. Vehicle manufacturer switched to all metric for a good reason.

  15. #35
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    18
    Well Char-Gar we're all different. In your case I would say that you are Narcissistic and intolerant of others with differing opinions. But then I'm probably as wrong with that opinion as you were with yours.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    12,820
    Quote Originally Posted by rldarmstr View Post
    Well Char-Gar we're all different. In your case I would say that you are Narcissistic and intolerant of others with differing opinions. But then I'm probably as wrong with that opinion as you were with yours.
    No, quite tolerant of the ways others do and look at things. Human beings and their behavior have been my stock in trade for well over 50 year. People actually interest me more than guns and I like the vast majority of them even with their peculiar ways and all of that.

    My daughter whom I love dearly has a dose of OCD, so it is easy for me to spot. She has her P.hd in psychology, so she know what it is and how to deal with it. I can walking into her home and rotate some piece of decor a few degrees and as soon as she comes in the room she spots it and says "Dad, I know what you are doing". It bothers her "sense of order.

    It is not a bad thing in reasonable doses, but knowing what is controlling our attitudes and actions can be a big help in life. We all have our quirks and issues, so they are no biggy as long we know how to deal with it. Putting a name on it is the first step in dealing with it.

    It seemed to me that your OP was a mountain out of a molehill thing and I noted the same frustration on the behalf of other posters. Just trying to figure out what the different screws upset you so badly and I still believe I did. They bother your sense or order. People with such a a hyper sense of order, generally fall somewhere on the OCB/OCD scale.

    Anyway, enjoy your new rifle. I hope you can put the metric/english sight threads behind you and have a ball with the rifle, but I am not sanguine about that. Likely you will never be truly happy with the rifle.

    I would like to have a Turnbull 86, odd ball mix of sight threads and all, but they are way out of my price point.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 09-25-2017 at 02:34 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NW GA
    Posts
    7,243
    This thread will now be closed.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check