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Thread: bolt engagement

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    bolt engagement

    I am curious as to how much bolt engagement with the happy bolt locking lugs is needed. most of the lever guns actually have?

    And how much is actually needed?

    At least in theory

    Like the old question of "is it a genuine military spec 1911 if it doesn't have BOTH lugs fully engaging with the slide?"

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Hick's Avatar
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    My lever guns don't have bolt lugs-- they have a solid block that slides up behind the bolt after it closes-- a much different situation. Don't know about Marlin and Rossi, I only have Winchesters and a Henry.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    the 1886 has two separate lugs.

    And I was wondering in general, because the locking lug is not the only thing that keeps the bolt locked shut in the original henry design, the toggle link assists and when the gun blows is supposedly going to lock the whole bolt shut.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Hick's Avatar
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    You got me-- I don't know. Hopefully someone who does will chime in
    Hick: Iron sights!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    (doh)
    Last edited by pietro; 09-19-2017 at 02:39 PM. Reason: pilot error
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    .


    Levergun locking bolt fitment is important for a few reasons - optimum accuracy, stress equalization, headspace control, and functionality/operating smoothness.

    The interface(s) between the locking bolt(s) and the receiver abutments should in a perfect world engage each other fully (100%) and evenly - which is usually achieved via careful (and expensive, labor-wise) hand fitting.

    As (either) a locking bolt or abutment face wears during use, the cartridge headspace distance (from the bolt face to either the cartridge rim recess or to the shoulder area of the chamber) will change, sometimes causing shooting issues usually needing correction (gunsmithing).

    Rough and/or uneven interfaces are one of the areas than can contribute to less than optimum smoothness when cycling the action.

    Most leverguns have relatively thin receiver sidewalls and unequal locking lug pressure can induce undue stress into them.


    .
    Last edited by pietro; 09-16-2017 at 06:11 PM.
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  7. #7
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    ..............One my 2 Rossi M92's the twin lugs reach up to just above the sides of the action top. There is a couple thousandths 'Play' if you pull the bolt back against the twin lugs. However I think in chambering a round the lugs are pushed back this amount anyway. Not having any issues with my 2 x M92's, M1886, or a couple 1893 Marlins as regards headspace.

    Not wanting to discount any real issue you might be seeing in your own rifle, but most 'Rear lockers' seem to have a bit of play built in. Your mileage may vary, you're smart to pay attention to it.

    ...............Buckshot
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Minuteshaver View Post
    the 1886 has two separate lugs.

    And I was wondering in general, because the locking lug is not the only thing that keeps the bolt locked shut in the original henry design, the toggle link assists and when the gun blows is supposedly going to lock the whole bolt shut.
    at
    The Winchester 1892 also has those two lugs in the side of the bolt. It is the 1894 that went over to the single lug behind the bolt, pivoted in a hinged floorplate, in order to permit longer caveartridges in a small action, and gave up a little smoothness to do it. The 1873 had only the toggle-joint (a valuable patent inherited from the otherwise pretty useless Volcanic rifle) and no locking lugs at all. I am amazed that it lasted so long on the market when the 1892 was available.

    For me the 1886 and 1892 are the perfect Winchesters. The genius of John M. Browning was in realising "Who says we have to pivot the lever in the receiver?" The largely unlamented Marlin 1881 had been doing that, like the modern 39a .22 and its ancestor, my other 1892, the Marlin rimfire. But they were nowhere near as strong as the 1886, and the 1881 was a very large receiver.

    I'm not quite sure what was meant by the original query, but the engaging areas are largerspect than much higher-pressure bolt-action rifles, and it appears to be enough. My 1886 extrudes primers by all of its .005in. headspace - and with modern brass the .40-82 case holds the chamber so that it isn't pushed back to reseat or mushroom them, and doesn't stretch brass. It wouldn't be ideal headspace in a high pressure in a higher pressure cartridge, but I can see no harm done, and I suspect that it was made that way. My loads were moderate smokeless ones, but perfectly adequate for hunting.

    Similarly I can't see any way accuracy would, in that situation, be harmed by more contact on one lug than the other, or more at the top than the bottom. If pressure was high, I think stretching of that long case-hardened mild steel receiver would take place till contact was even, and then stop. If pressure wasn't that high, nobody would ever notice.

    Winchester produced high-velocity smokeless loads in the early 20th century, then discontinued them. Possibly they just wanted to sell more 1894s. One opportunity I think they missed would have been to introduce something like the .44 Magnum for the 1892. Maybe they were afraid people would modify .44 Special revolvers and blame the result on them.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check