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Thread: Is 9mm Luger another high pressure round that should not shoot Cast?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I currently load cast for 3 9mm firearms. A Custom made stub barrel for my Handi Rifle single shot. A Hipoint C9 pistol, and a Hipoint 9mm Carbine. (and another in .40sw)

    Just like everything else, bullet fit is king.
    When you get the bullet big enough yet it will chamber then you start playing with the other variables.

    Mine tend to be mostly loaded with Red Dot, from 3 grains to 4.5 depending on which gun they are intended for. They are loaded up in 100 round MTM boxes and the load is on the box.

    In the case of my Hipoint C9 pistol cast .3595-.360 lead was more accurate than Federal FMJ factory loads by at least an inch at 20 feet.

    But I will admit I don't always push for max speed either.
    The 4-4.5 gr loads of Red Dot are quite comfortable in the Hipoint Carbine or the single shot. But are a bit snappy for my taste in the pistol.

    Why make my own ammo if I can not adjust it so that it makes a perfect fit to my needs.

    I tend not to chase the whole speed thing. That's a young man's game.
    I do like perfect function without issues, and accuracy is always nice.
    And it has been my experience that true accuracy and speed seldom go hand in hand.

    More like opposite ends of the teeter totter. You raise one you lower the other.

    Its all about balance, and where you are sitting on the board.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundog View Post
    Ranch Dog 358-135-RF if you can find one. It's a dandy.
    It is indeed and the only mold I have for mine, it's that good! I recently had the lube grooves removed, upped the weight to 142 and still shoots wonderfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie17 View Post
    All my 9mm's, only shoot cast. And shoot very well!
    Yup and yup
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  3. #23
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    ^^^ That is a masterstoke design. I have one from NOE and one from Accurate. Every Ranch Dog mold I have is a beautiful thing. It has been tested and proven on hogs. It works real good.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I like the looks of the 135gr. FP, but I'm having good success with s 125gr. cast FP & 5.8-6.2/Herco. The same load with a 124/125gr. J-word projectile shoots about as well, but not any better.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    My problem with 9mm isn't that it's incapable with cast bullets but rather the barrels are inconsistent. You have to match the cartridge to the gun and 9mm pistols are ALL over the map in my experience.

    So, while I can and have made 9mm cartridges with cast bullets that shoot just fine in a particular 9mm pistol; I find it difficult to create a cast bullet 9mm load that shoots well in more than one pistol.

    I have multiple pistols chambered in 9mm and I have made loads that shoot well in individual pistols but it's just not worth the logistics headache to maintain multiple setups for multiple cast bullet 9mm loadings. Different alloys, different sizing dies, different seating depths, different crimps, blah, blah, blah....

    So I picked one 9mm pistol that liked cast bullets and created ONE cast bullet load that works well in that one pistol.

    Could I make multiple loads for multiple pistols ? - Sure, but I don't wish to do so.
    And BTW, the one pistol that was the easiest to load cast bullets for turned out to be a Beretta 92. Nice sharp rifling, generous chamber, no issues with feeding.

    Now, with 38 Special it was a breeze to find loads that would function beautifully in several revolvers. Some cartridges are clearly a little more "cast bullet friendly" than others.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Grmps View Post
    9MM not so much a casting problem it's a tapered case issue. People have a tendency to over crimp with a factory crimp die and under size the boolit in the last step of loading. running an undersized cast boolit through any caliber is a problem.

    Get the crimp just hard enough to hold the boolit and not downsize it.

    The harder the lead the less problem this is.

    I size and crimp in one die than have the Lee factory crimp die barely "kiss" the cartridge to ensure proper chambering.
    I consistently get the size I'm looking for.

    Pull a couple boolits to make sure you're not downsizing them.

    For the higher speed boolits it a matter of both fit and alloy to get a boolit hard and elastomeric enough to withstand the centrifugal force and not self distruct. Many have had success aloying copper and pushing the boolits over 3000 fps
    This is the best advice here. Do not squish your bhllets down with a crimp. Use hard enough lead to keep the bullet from being squished by the beck tension on that tapered case.
    Solved all issues for Ken.

  7. #27
    Boolit Man fivefang's Avatar
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    Don Mountain, yes there are several GC Molds available, I use the Beverage Can GC's on my #383 Saeco 140 gr.# 356402 Lyman 120 gr. also on my Lee 356-124, for about 50 Yrs. I have shot them without GC & had just minor leading problems & I do like to stay close to 35K pressure wise I also have a NOE 4-Cav. 2 GC, 2 PB, my favorite is the 383 Saeco, Fivefang

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    So, while I can and have made 9mm cartridges with cast bullets that shoot just fine in a particular 9mm pistol; I find it difficult to create a cast bullet 9mm load that shoots well in more than one pistol.
    I guess part of the dilemma lies in what level of accuracy and function you're seeking. I've found the "5.8-6.2/Herco/124-124gr.AnyBulletType" works pretty well in almost a dozen 9x19mm firearms, from P-35s to Berettas to High Point Carbines to CZs, etc., etc. What kind of groups are you looking for, as a criterion for an acceptable combination? I HAVE noticed that certain pistols seem to like LRNs better than LRNFPs or the converse, or JHPs better than JSPs, etc.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  9. #29
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    I use 2 different boolits for the majority of my 9mm shooting. The NOE 358 135 FP and the Lyman 356402. I have other molds that work well but I just like the way these perform.
    I use these two in all my 9mm handguns and they shoot well and feed well in all of them.
    I have a Beretta 92(which will eat and function with almost anything), a Taurus 92, a Springfield Range Officer in 9mm, and a S&W 929 eight shot revolver.
    The design of the boolits I use doesn't put the base of the boolit deep enough into the case for it to be in harm's way. This allows me to use plain range scrap(water quenched from the mold) for all the boolits without worry about swaging the base. If I size these at all, I size to .358. They all feed with no issues in my pistols, none of which have been modified in any way.
    Most of the semi autos like loads on the hotter side, somewhere near max or just below. The revolver doesn't care what powder charge you run through it.

  10. #30
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    Four 9mm pistols, here.....HP, Nano, Sig 320 compact and SA Mod 2 Sub Compact. Use three different style cast bullets......RCBS 125 RN GC (first acquisition), Lyman 120 TC PB, NOE 115 RF PB with HP option. All feed and function with the same load and any of the above bullets, zero leading. No specific load, tailored for each gun. Use RCBS carbide dies and their optional taper crimp die. Ran the 125 RN GC for many years, before I got tired of buying and installing gas checks.

    Winelover

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    The majority of issues with the 9mm/cast bullet combo come from the factory expanders that come with the 9mm die sets. You want an expander that is long enough to expand the cases deep enough to protect the base of the bullet from being swaged down in the 9mm cases.

    Over crimping is 1 thing. Swaging the bullets bases down is just as bad if not worse.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    A factory lyman m-die in cut-a-way cases.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Some casters have issues with softer lead and they bump up the alloy (make it harder) and the issues go away. Namely stop the bullets from being swaged down in the cases.

    I bought a mihec 125gr mold for the 9mm. I really like that bullet so I made that custom expander pictured above specifically for that bullet/seating depth. Using nothing more than +/- 9bhn alloy and pc'ing the cast bullets I have no problem loading 1050fps loads for a 3.6" bbl'd taurus pt111 g2. The loads aren't in p+ territory but they are on the hot side.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Same bullet/expander combo used is a 1911 for target loads (27,000psi/1100fps).
    [IMG][/IMG]

    A 10-shot group group with the 9bhn/1100fps/9mm loads. This is not a hand picked/cherry picked target by any means. It's nothing more than the target I used to test that 5.0gr/wst load.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    There's casters/reloaders on this website that have forgotten more than I known. When they say "Heck Ya" to reloading cast bullets in the 9mm's. They know what they're talking about.

    I only wish I had the lead these guys burn up in 1 week shooting their 9mm's, I be set for life with casting lead.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master






    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    other then carry all my 9mm handguns and my ar15 see nothing but cast. Couldn't afford to shoot them any other way and the 9mm is about as fun to shoot as it gets. I shoot 1000s of rounds of cast every year out of them.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
    FISH4BUGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonMountain View Post
    After shooting cast projectiles for the last 30 years or so, I have come to the conclusion that there are certain calibers that do not operate well with cast lead bullets. All of the high pressure "magnum" rifles of smaller calibers seem to fit into this category, like .223 Remington, .243, 7mm Mag, 6.5 Swedish Mauser and 300 Win Mag. Although I "play" with much reduced velocities of cast bullets in these calibers just to see what I can do. My question is, there has been much discussion here about cast lead bullets in the 9mm Luger pistol and all the "problems" it presents. Is this another one of those that should only be used with jacketed bullets for best performance? Particularly if used for a self defense carry pistol?
    That is almost all I shoot in my 9mm guns....including 4 machine guns. The only FMJ's are the 147gr subsonic loads. I don't like to put lead through any of the suppressors.
    I would suggest using factory ammo for carry and cast for practice.
    Oh....my mould? 6 cavity H&G #331
    Collector and shooter of guns with selector switches and threaded barrels. Collector of suppressors, SBR's, AOW's and SBS's. Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    I've shot lots of 9mm cast in my pistols. Mostly Browning, Sig and Walter. It seems to be more work in a 9mm to find a good load than other calibers. I've also noticed more variations, and issues, with the different 9mm brass. Cast is definitely doable.

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy bpatterson84's Avatar
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    I'd say that 9mm did take me longer than usual to figure out. PC fixes most things, after that really only had to work out depth/crimp nuances and figuring out the propellant type/amount.

  16. #36
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    I believe that most of the cartridges listed by the OP are failures by some due to lube, fit, alloy and pressure. Yes top ends happen best with the 223 & 243 with jacketed. That doesn't mean you can't be happy with 75% loads. With handguns it becomes an advanced course to get full 100% but it is attainable rather easily.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  17. #37
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    The majority of issues with the 9mm/cast bullet combo come from the factory expanders that come with the 9mm die sets
    Amen to that! I never could figure out what all the fuss over 9MM's was as I never had any trouble with them. The light went on one day, I use an M die when I load on the turret and my CH Auto Champ expander is just like the M die. I wasn't some super knowledgeable reloader, I was just lucky in my choice of tools.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C. S. Lewis

  18. #38
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    Lots of good advice in this thread. To summarize:

    Cast your bullets hard enough they don't swage down when loaded.

    Make sure you aren't sizing them too small for the bore.

    Use a case expander that goes deeper than just belling the case mouth.

    As long as you do all those things you stand a good chance of success.
    NRA Endowment Member

    Just because a handful of people on the Internet share an opinion doesn't prove it is correct.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I load and shoot two 9mm luger pistols three 9mm largo one destroyer carbine. all with the same 124 gr rcbs tc bullet. no leading or other problems at all. I use standard dies nothing special.

  20. #40
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    I will offer this as well a all the other expert advice here. *IF* and I say IF you can look in your barrel, and don't see much freebore, or NO freebore, and the rifling runs right down to the mouth of the chamber itself, then there really isn't any room in the barrel for the boolit!

    The best accuracy out of a handload comes with the boolit seated into the throat in the barrel where the freebore is pretty snug and there isn't a lot of room in there so the boolit has no choice but to be guided straight and squarely into the leade ins to the rifling. This is how it SHOULD be, this is how SAAMI spec'd the 9mm chamber but in reality, not very many 9mm auto pistols are throated properly for jacketed ammo let alone cast boolits.

    So among all the discussion about boolit seaters and custom expander plugs, and which kind of crimp die to use, is the bottom line and that is boolit fitment. Don't overlook the throat in the barrel as fitment here is equally as important as anywhere else. Many times once properly throated, you can seat out long enough that your boolit is not running into the web of the case at the bottom, you have more room for powder, generally less pressure is developed with a longer COA, and the throat is a nice lengthened gradual approach to the rifling which distorts the boolit the least amount along it's path to the muzzle. Plus longer COA will in most cases feed much better than short COA.
    Got a .22 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throat reaming? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? Shoot me a PM! Also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cylinderhone-756429174391912/

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check