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Thread: Leading with PC...

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Leading with PC...

    Hello, looking for a little help with leading, in a 9mm no less .
    Facts
    Gun: Gen 3 Glock 17 OEM barrel
    Bore: .3555
    Previous success: .355 & .356 commercial HiTek, .358 lubed COWW water dropped; to the tune of 1k between cleanings requiring only Hoppes and patches.
    Current bullet: NOE HTC 133gr 358 RN sized .357" after PC.

    Alloy: COWW
    PC: Dark metallic grey & HF Red; cooked 20min after gel @ 400F
    Coating thickness: roughly .0005-.00075" seeing dia growth of .001-.0015"
    Pulled dia: .357", ring present at case mouth too narrow to mic, backing off crimp still leaves trace when there's enough spring back to leave the case slightly belled.


    Loading on LnL, expand with .38S&W, seat and crimp separately.
    Brass: Winchester. Primer: WSP. Powder: Bullseye & ClayDot. Velocity: 970-1000fps.

    I'm getting pretty severe leading in the last half of the bore over the course of a match ~200rnds, strangely accuracy remains very good zero indication of tumbling. Substantial smoke haven't paid attention to whether it is progressive. Have not recovered any bullets that have not hit steel. Smash test with hammer shows good adhesion/no flaking. Anyone have any ideas? Getting tired of scraping out lead with Chore-Boys. Thanks

  2. #2
    Vendor Sponsor Handloader109's Avatar
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    I've used gen 3 oem 17 for a good many rounds, changed to different barrel last year, but once I started PC, I didn't have any issue with leading. I used .356 size after pc most of the time. Others will say go larger, try .357 or .358 and see what happens.

  3. #3
    Boolit Man
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    Anyone else have any thoughts?

    Tried .355 because that's what my .356 Lee sizer left them.

    .356 because while honing it out I figured what's the harm?

    Doesn't seem like .358 or even the current .357 should be necessary if a commercial Hi-Tek at either .355 or .356 works fine.

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  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    kungfustyle's Avatar
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    PC is just like any other lube, or at least for me. If you go outside the parameters it will lead. Try the .357's. Have you tried the same alloy in a different mold without leading? If its leading half way down the bbl your lube is giving out. Try rolling the ones you have in Alox or better 45/45/10 alox/johnson's past wax/mineral sp. Reload and shoot. But, it sounds like lube is your culprit. If the rounds were to small you would be getting key holing on your target as well.
    When you powder coat try only 15 to 20 minutes total. Also did you heat treat the coww/pc'd boolits?
    You can also try to powder coat some of your other molds/alloy that you've already had success with.
    Last edited by kungfustyle; 09-12-2017 at 04:32 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Man
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    The .357"s are what I am currently loading, may be slightly less leading than when I tried smaller.

    Same alloy as the traditional lubed bullet I run at .358".

    Was doing 20 minutes total then read that it should be 20 minutes after "gel" can't say I saw much change, both smash fine with good adhesion.

    Heat treat, no. I do water drop my non PC bullets out of the mold. I have water dropped my PC bullets out of the oven but saw no change.

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
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    I guess I am confused, are you shooting them sized to 0.357" or 0.355"?? Whos powder? I think 20+min is too long, maybe softening the alloy. I only bake 15m total in a preheated oven. I use mostly powders from Smoke, but have had good results with HG red too. The powder goes liquid in 2-3m. I am water dropping out of the oven. I shoot ranges scrap that is air cooled. The water dropping after pc seems to give me a 5-6bhn bump, as tested on my CT tester. My bullets have conventional grooves though. A smooth bullet is giving quite a bit more bearing surface.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
    I guess I am confused, are you shooting them sized to 0.357" or 0.355"?? Whos powder? I think 20+min is too long, maybe softening the alloy. I only bake 15m total in a preheated oven. I use mostly powders from Smoke, but have had good results with HG red too. The powder goes liquid in 2-3m. I am water dropping out of the oven. I shoot ranges scrap that is air cooled. The water dropping after pc seems to give me a 5-6bhn bump, as tested on my CT tester.
    I am shooting them sized .357".

    I have tried them at smaller sizes. I have had commercial coated cast bullets work without leading in this gun at smaller sizes.

    Current and pictured powder is RandyRats dark metallic grey. I have also tried HF red.

    My observation has been that the powder goes liquid closer to five minutes in a pre heated oven. I can try a shorter cook time, I was previously doing 20 total with the same results.

    I have not tested BHN, water dropping from the oven has made no apparent change in leading.

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master Idz's Avatar
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    I've had some success using a double coat of HF red. I tumble coat with airsoft BBs then bake 20 min in a 400 degree oven. When they've cooled down to warm I repeat the coat in another bin with fresh powder and BBs. The extra coat eliminated most of my 9mm leading problems.

  9. #9
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idz View Post
    I've had some success using a double coat of HF red. I tumble coat with airsoft BBs then bake 20 min in a 400 degree oven. When they've cooled down to warm I repeat the coat in another bin with fresh powder and BBs. The extra coat eliminated most of my 9mm leading problems.
    I was wondering about thickness of coating. If .0005/.00075" was sufficient? Any good way of bumping it up without two coats?
    Using ASBB DT with HF red.
    No BBs with the grey gives full coverage.

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
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    your doing everything exactly the same as I am [cook time/powder] except for the previously mentioned 358 diameter.
    your clue here is the smoke.
    it's blowing past the bullet.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I have also been fighting Glock leading in 9 mm with PC coatings. I have been posting in a couple of threads, but you can work backwards from post 27, 25 and 17 in:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Hi-Tek-coated

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef15 View Post
    I was wondering about thickness of coating. If .0005/.00075" was sufficient? Any good way of bumping it up without two coats?
    Using ASBB DT with HF red.
    No BBs with the grey gives full coverage.

    Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
    I don't load 9mm but do 45 acp, 308W and 6MM. I can get up to .004 increase with single application using Smokes " Bacon Grease" with ASBB and shake and bake--I do stand up individual bullets. I have never had any leading even at higher velocities.

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks for the replies.

    I guess I'll hone out the sizer a little further. I am hesitant because I believe I will reach a point where I have to load several COALs for different guns, and of course terrified that my 2.5" @ 25yd groups with no development will be lost.

    I would still like to know how it is that The Blue Bullets @ .355 or commercial Hi Tek coated @ .356 run lead free? Could my alloy be too hard and not obturating enough?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    PC: Dark metallic grey & HF Red; cooked 20min after gel @ 400F
    Coating thickness: roughly .0005-.00075" seeing dia growth of .001-.0015"
    Way too thin a coat. Should be a couple thou. & NOT see through. Wait til you get a thicker coat before honing the sizer. You an double coat, just cook til gloss then STOP. Cool & recoat. Cook normal. ACWW should be hard enough but I don't shoot a glock. You can drop in ice water after second bake to harden them if needed. Coating abrades (like sanding dust) as it goes down the barrel, making what looks like 'smoke'. Too thin a coat wears out before the muzzle.
    Last edited by popper; 09-13-2017 at 01:52 PM.
    Whatever!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
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    the Grey should go on about .001 thick.
    you might be able to bolster the thickness by mixing in a little harbor freight red.
    about 3 to 1 would be a good start.

    unfortunately if you get a thick coat on the nose you may run into oal changes but I would think .002 on the oal would be a non issue.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Are you sizing before or after coating. Your measurements makes me think you are sizing before coating which can lead to bonding problems. I have used Randy's gray and it smokes like a coal fired freight train in my Glocks with either stock or KKM barrels. I'm shooting .357" with lots of smoke but no leading though. FWIW, I've used Smokes PC powder too and it doesn't smoke.

  17. #17
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by igolfat8 View Post
    Are you sizing before or after coating. Your measurements makes me think you are sizing before coating which can lead to bonding problems. I have used Randy's gray and it smokes like a coal fired freight train in my Glocks with either stock or KKM barrels. I'm shooting .357" with lots of smoke but no leading though. FWIW, I've used Smokes PC powder too and it doesn't smoke.
    1st post. Sized .357" after Powder Coating.

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