Rossi 92 rechambering?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Bear with me on this one chaps as I appreciate it will sound mad to most of you...

We have some rather restrictive gun laws in the UK which allied with the range rules at my rifle club mean that I have a rather strange set of requirements which I am exploring options for.

We have to apply to the police for each and every rifle on a case by case basis giving the cartridge that we want it to be chambered for and the use to which we will be putting it, establishing what is called "good reason" in law. This means that if one is applying for a rifle to be used for target shooting and/or hunting you have to provide evidence you have somewhere where you have somewhere to shoot targets as a member of a rifle club and/or somewhere to hunt.

This means that if a chap wanted a lever action carbine to hunt and shoot targets with, it would have to be both legal to hunt in terms of minimum muzzle energy for the species
sought and also be suitable for the range template at the club he is a member of.

The minimum energy level and calibre for a rifle used for hunting deer in the UK, ranging from 10kg Muntjac does to 200kg Red stags, is 1700 ft/lbs at the muzzle and at least 0.240" in bore.

The maximum calibre permitted at the range at my club is 0.455" and maximum muzzle energy is 500 ft/lbs.

They permit hand loads but do not permit reduced loads in rifle cases as there have been incidents of "mix ups" where people have shot full power loads "by accident" through their rifles on our indoor ranges...

With these boxes to be ticked it seemed to me that the .454 Casull filled the brief as it could be used with full throttle loads for hunting and 45 Colt ( or downloaded to equivalent) loads for indoor use.

The problem is that Rossi seem to be the only people to make a handy lever action in this chambering and further that with the UK being such a tiny market none of them have been or are likely to be imported here.

There are plenty of 45 Colt examples about however.

How feasible is it to have a gunsmith rechamber one to 454 Casull?

Would it feed?

[markX]

Texhnically it is easy...lengthen the chamber with a reamer...assuming the rifle will let you load and cycle with the longer cartridge. Issue would be pressure. The 454 really cranks it up. If the lever action is only built for 45 cowboy loads for example it wouldn’t be safe with casull pressures.

I know it’s not a lever action, but TC makes an encore in 460 sw. This would allow you to shoot 460, 454, and 45 colt easily interchangeable.

Other consideration would be find out if the lever is approved for 45 colt +p+ type loads like from buffalo bore, or grizzly. I shoot them out of my 45 colt revolvers and they approach 454 performance. From a carbine barrel they would maybe equal the 454 from a handgun.

Good luck!!!

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know if it's available or in your price range but I would consider the Marlin chambered in 44 Mag over the Rossi in 45 Colt.

The 44 would give you the option of 44 magnum or 44 Special.

[phonejack]

An Encore would be a much more practical choice.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Texhnically it is easy...lengthen the chamber with a reamer...assuming the rifle will let you load and cycle with the longer cartridge. Issue would be pressure. The 454 really cranks it up. If the lever action is only built for 45 cowboy loads for example it wouldn’t be safe with casull pressures.

I know it’s not a lever action, but TC makes an encore in 460 sw. This would allow you to shoot 460, 454, and 45 colt easily interchangeable.

Other consideration would be find out if the lever is approved for 45 colt +p+ type loads like from buffalo bore, or grizzly. I shoot them out of my 45 colt revolvers and they approach 454 performance. From a carbine barrel they would maybe equal the 454 from a handgun.

Good luck!!!

Hi Mark,

I understand that the Rossi is factory chambered in 454 Casull and hence my interest in this particular model over, say, a Chiappa or Uberti 1892.

Is it reasonable to assume that the guns themselves won't be any different save for the chambering?

[The Lord Flashheart]

I don't know if it's available or in your price range but I would consider the Marlin chambered in 44 Mag over the Rossi in 45 Colt.

The 44 would give you the option of 44 magnum or 44 Special.

Price isn't really an issue but those muzzle energy limits and thresholds are.

Would a 44 magnum make 1700 ft/lbs from a 20-22" barrel?

[The Lord Flashheart]

An Encore would be a much more practical choice.

But a single shot, sadly.

We shoot level action rifles in gallery rifles as a sort of poor substitute for pistol shooting over here, same events as practical and IPSC pistol but shot with a rifle, and so it has to be a repeater.

[KCSO]

You can safely load the Rossi to an effective hunting round in 45 Colt without any change to to the gun. See Paco Kelly's load data on Levergun.com. No need to change anything. If a 250 grain bullet at 1550 or better from the 20" Rossi won't do it nothing will.

[texassako]

Price isn't really an issue but those muzzle energy limits and thresholds are.

Would a 44 magnum make 1700 ft/lbs from a 20-22" barrel?

Looks like .44 Mag is close. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

[The Lord Flashheart]

Looks like .44 Mag is close. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

Sadly even that hydrashok load only makes 1450 ft/lbs.

I have no doubt it kill deer, I hasten to add, just that we have to jump through these hoops and if it doesn't make the energy level they will only give it to me for target work. :/

[RobS]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ltlevergun.htm

[The Lord Flashheart]

You can safely load the Rossi to an effective hunting round in 45 Colt without any change to to the gun. See Paco Kelly's load data on Levergun.com. No need to change anything. If a 250 grain bullet at 1550 or better from the 20" Rossi won't do it nothing will.

I looked up Mr Kelly's load data, wow...

Isn't 454 caull brass stronger than 45 colt brass?

[The Lord Flashheart]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ltlevergun.htm

So... reading between the lines there is not as much difference between the 45 colt and the 454 casull as long as one is a handloader?

[KCSO]

How will your game warden determine the exact muzzle energy of your rounds? Do you have to submit a sample prior to hunting submit loading data? Here our game warden looked at the rifle and looked at the round and I told him how it was loaded and he said" That should do it".

As to the 454 the first 454's used Colt brass albeit not as stout a load as some now. Hence Paco's loads for the Colt in MODERN STRONG rifles, not for the 73's.

[RobS]

So... reading between the lines there is not as much difference between the 45 colt and the 454 casull as long as one is a handloader?

Yep.......if one is a sound, responsible handloader. The 454 Casull will push more velocity of course due to the longer case (case volume) and higher pressures however most applications for hunting in which a 454 Casull lever action was intended can be done with a properly handloaded 45 Colt in a strong/modern firearm. I use to have 454 Casull revolvers, now I only own a Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt and load it to Ruger Only pressures (30K) and call it a day. I use the same loads in my Rossi 454 Casull and clean the chamber out each time to prevent the carbon buildup at the end of the chamber due to using 45 Colt brass. I do have some 454 Casull cases for the just in case situation that would/will probably never happen.

[The Lord Flashheart]

How will your game warden determine the exact muzzle energy of your rounds? Do you have to submit a sample prior to hunting submit loading data? Here our game warden looked at the rifle and looked at the round and I told him how it was loaded and he said" That should do it".

As to the 454 the first 454's used Colt brass albeit not as stout a load as some now. Hence Paco's loads for the Colt in MODERN STRONG rifles, not for the 73's.

Unfortunately its not the game warden at point of hunt I have to worry about but the police licensing authorities at the point of applying for permission to acquire the rifle.

If I write to them and say "I would like a 45 Colt for range use" they would reply back with "Certainly sir" but if I were to say I wanted it for hunting deer they would consult COTW and come back with something along the lines of the "The 45 Colt does not produce enough muzzle energy for your stated purpose and therefore we are declining your application".

So I would never get hold of it in the first place. :/

If I apply for a 30-30 or a 45-70 the opposite would hold as they know the range energy limits.

Fun eh?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Yep.......if one is a sound, responsible handloader. The 454 Casull will push more velocity of course due to the longer case (case volume) and higher pressures however most applications for hunting can be done with a properly handloaded 45 Colt in a strong/modern firearm. I use to have 454 Casull revolvers, now I only own a Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt and load it to Ruger Only pressures (30K) and call it a day. I use the same loads in my Rossi 454 Casull and clean the chamber out each time to prevent the carbon buildup at the end of the chamber due to using 45 Colt brass. I do have some 454 Casull cases for the just in case situation that would/will probably never happen.

Sounds reasonable.

So the 45 Colt cases are just as strong as the 454?

I ask as, for example, privi brass has the same internal volume as Lapua in my 3006 but the lapua brass can take much stiffer loads.

[vzerone]

Sir the 45 Colt brass isn't as thick in the web as the 454 brass. The 45 Colt can be loaded to higher pressure as long as the brass fits the chamber without much slop. For example you can use the 45 Colt brass in the stout revolvers chambered for the 454. Think of cartridge brass as a gasket to seal the breech end of a barrel. On an automobile engine if your head bolts are loose your gasket will leak! One of our famous gun magazine writers, Layne Simpson, was answering a question where a gentleman wanted to rebarrel a Browning made 1892 leveraction in 44 Magnum to 454. This is before any company come out with 92's in 454. Mr Simpson told him a firm no as the action wasn't designed for the pressure. Those Rossi 454's may have different steel and heat treatment then the other calibers. We have the problem over here with the 38 Special S&W. Some think you can just ream the cylinders to 357 Magnum. Smith & Wesson says no they are heat treated differently. Somewhere inbetween lies the truth. Unfortunately the TC Encore in 460 S&W seems the way for you even though it's a single shot. It's too bad it's not a good idea to shoot 44 Special or 44 Magnum from a 444 Marlin or it may have sufficed for you.

[RobS]

No not quite as strong due to the head of the brass having a large primer vs a small primer however one would not be pushing 454 Casull levels either. It has been proven that modern 45 Colt brass is just as strong 44 Magnum and loads from Paco Kelly show this as does John Linebaugh's information and testing. Here is another nice read regards to upper 45 Colt development and there is a section talking about the case strength later on down in the article.
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings


In reality it comes down to the chamber of the revolver or rifle as it relates to the brass life. Some 45 Colt chambers are rather large so the brass can be worked pretty hard. I have both a 454 Casull Rossi (Puma imported by LSI not the current Braztech models) and then a Rossi 45 Colt (Braztech) and the chamber of the Braztech 45 Colt is very sloppy in comparison.

[earlmck]

There are plenty of 45 Colt examples about however.

How feasible is it to have a gunsmith rechamber one to 454 Casull?

Would it feed?

For your purposes you need to be able to use factory 454 ammo to make the hunting power factor and cowboy level 45 colt factory at the gun club. So yes, you need the re-chamber to 454. You will need to cut back the cartridge-stopping bump on the lifter to accommodate the longer 454 rounds (which may or may not result in 45 colt not feeding great). And be aware that Rossi now (after the first rifles failed) threads the magazine tube into the receiver because the recoil of the 454 will eventually cause the regular-style magazine tube to come dis-attached. So maybe don't use a whole bunch of 454 level loads?